08-14-2012, 04:29 PM
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#1
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Cupertino, CA
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Camber gauge TOOL thread: What accuracy needed to DIY alignment & what tool at ~$250?
To check camber before & after taking the vehicle to the shop to be aligned:
Q: What accuracy is needed in a home DIY camber tool?
Q: What tools are available that achieve that accuracy at home?
And would you recommend the camber gauge shown in the FSM?
Note: I searched for, and read all the threads in the 3rd gen T4Rs forum which had camber in the title, but not a single 3rd-gen thread showed what tools they used nor the procedure they used to check camber at home.
The closest I found was this Yotatech home alignment DIY:
* 86-95 Trucks & 4Runners 2nd/3rd gen pickups, and 1st/2nd gen 4Runners with IFS
Which, amazingly, used a plumb bob.
But it's for the wrong model years (mine is a 1997 2WD Base 4Runner) so I'm not sure how much applies.
To check camber before & after taking the vehicle to the shop to be aligned:
Q: What accuracy is needed (for example, is 1/8° desired?)
Q: What tools are available that achieve that desired accuracy at home?
Last edited by mom; 08-16-2012 at 01:32 PM.
Reason: Changed title to reflect the tool nature of the question.
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08-14-2012, 07:30 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: San Jose,CA
Age: 47
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Senior Member
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When I did a quick set up of my own after the lift to get it by for the drive to the alignment shop I used a piece of wood across the wheel and an angle finder
similar to that.
If you are looking for something to actually set your alignment perfectly, they do make specific tools for that but I have never used them myself to recommend one over another.
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08-15-2012, 02:25 AM
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#3
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Banned
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick Figure
I used a piece of wood across the wheel and an angle finder
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Thanks for the advice.
I saw many camber DIYs similar to what you suggest, where the user measures the offset of the 12 o'clock & 6 o'clock positions of the wheel with respect to a line perpendicular to the ground, and then uses trig to calculate the angle based on the distance delta.
The good news is that available measurement technology is constantly improving. For example, just as you described, this camber DIY used a block of wood & an iPhone as the measuring device.
The key question is what accuracy is needed ... and what accuracy can be obtained?
BTW, here's a picture showing the result of what may turn out to be grossly maladjusted camber ... the tread is worn off to the belts (even though the vehicle was presumably aligned 12K miles ago by Goodyear when the tires were installed).
Here are pictures of the passenger side front eccentric:
Note: The yellow line was done by me prior to the alignment ... so it shows how much the alignment guy moved the eccentric. After having been burned, I always mark before an alignment and check after.
Note: I don't trust any alignment shops anymore - after having been burned twice by the crooks - so I want to check the alignment both before and after I take it to the shop to be aligned again!
Driver's side front eccentric:
Note: The rust is from unrelated battery acid spillage.
The goal of this thread is to scope what accuracy is needed and obtainable for a home DIY camber gauge ... so that I can check my camber before and after bringing it to the shop to be aligned.
Last edited by mom; 08-16-2012 at 01:49 PM.
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08-15-2012, 03:20 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
Thanks for the advice. I'm shocked that there isn't a single 3rd-generation 4Runner home alignment DIY on this entire forum!
Let's hope we can find a good supplier for the necessary camber measurements.
Here's a picture showing why I think my camber is grossly off, by the way ... the tread is worn off to the belts in just about 12K miles (even though the vehicle was aligned prior).
Notice the eccentric on that side of the vehicle is set vastly different than the complementary eccentric for the other side:
Passenger side front eccentric:
Note: The yellow was done by me prior to the alignment ... so it shows how much the alignment guy moved the eccentric.
Note: I don't trust any alignment shops anymore - after having been burned twice by the crooks.
Driver's side front eccentric:
Note: The rust is from unrelated battery acid spillage.
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All alignments ive had done professionally have been spot on.. try to find places that use the hunter systems and watch them while they actually do it to make sure the techs are actually following the computerized measurements
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08-15-2012, 06:17 AM
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#5
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Join Date: Nov 2010
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Member
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Besides tire wear, are there any other issues? If not, it could be a defective tire.
If you want to solve this, you need to start with two new tires on the front, so you have some kind of base line to work from.
From there, you can:
1) Put a wrench on the camber adjustment, and put it back to where you think it should be, assuming the original alignment tech made a mistake 12k miles ago. Of course you without an alignment rack and precision tools would just be guessing...
2) Go back to the original shop, complain about the job and ask for a re-do. The shop may point out a) you could have a bad tire, b) you may have hit a curb, c) any other thing that may have happened over the past year to knock the camber out of whack.
3) Take it to a new shop, have it aligned, keep the print out and receipt.
Once you have made a choice, check every 2k miles. One idea would be to pick a nice level concrete driveway. Make a large puddle with a garden hose, drive through, and observe the water marks the tires make. The tread should look about the same side to side, there shouldn't be crabbing to the side, etc. First sign of trouble or wear, take it back to the shop that does the work and get it back on the rack.
Good luck!
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02 4Runner SR5, 2WD, 250k, kid's car
98 4Runner Base, 2WD, 2.7L 4cyl, sold at 264k. Great truck, but the 4cyl just doesn't have enough power
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08-15-2012, 08:34 AM
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#6
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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My guess is that the right tools would cost far more than the alignment (~$60).
Like I always recommend, find a shop with a guy who has lots of gray hair, smokes like a chimney and cusses like a sailor -that's the guy you want. Someone who's been doing alignments for 30 years, and has done them on something other than McPherson struts, will know what they're doing and usually do a good job. It'll be more accurate and cheaper than trying to do it yourself (there's probably a reason they use very expensive alignment racks instead of tape measures and level/inclinometers - you're probably not going to get it measured correctly down to .25 degree with an inclinometer).
I've done 'driveway alignments' and gotten it close enough to drive to the alignment shop but would never trust them long-term. An alignment is much cheaper than one tire, much less two.
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Last edited by 98OzarksRunner; 08-15-2012 at 08:39 AM.
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08-15-2012, 09:19 AM
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#7
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Real Name: Steve
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buy 2 new tires and then align. How can you get an accurate alignment when your tires look like you entered in the local burn out contest?
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08-15-2012, 10:08 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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I haven't had a good alignment guy in a while since I've been moving a bit in the last few years, and for the truck I went firestone lifetime. partially for the fact that I knew it wouldn't stay stock, and partially for the fact that it takes the biggest risk of needing suspension replaced and the alignment touched up before a long drive back home. I figured if I can minimize the potential cost of an out of town repair that's a win win.
I will ask some of the guys at work who have lived in the bay area much longer than I who a good shop is around here. My usual suggestion is to stay away from tire store and find a shop that specializes in frame repair.
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08-15-2012, 01:16 PM
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#9
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Join Date: May 2010
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There's a great shop in Santa Cruz Stick Figure if you ever need it. Soquel Alignment and Exhaust. The guy deals with lifted vehicles all the time and does strictly alignments and exhaust. In an hour he was able to fix my alignment issues that another shop couldn't do after four trips and multiple hours.
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08-15-2012, 01:22 PM
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#10
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Banned
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 98Base4R
Besides tire wear, are there any other issues? If not, it could be a defective tire.
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It's OT, but a separate thread with gory details about the tire-wear problem is here:
- Advice sought for the likely cause of premature front right tire wear (11k miles)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98Base4R
you need to start with two new tires
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That's a different issue than what tool to buy that tests camber.
For example, this camber measuring tool mounts on the wheel:
And, this camber measuring tool mounts on the rotor:
With or without new tires, this thread is posed to ask what camber tool is available today that will do a good enough job at a decent enough price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98Base4R
without an alignment rack and precision tools would just be guessing...
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I agree "guessing" would occur if we spec out a tool that doesn't have the desired accuracy.
The question then becomes ...
Q: What accuracy do we 'need'?
The camber spec for my 4Runner is - ¼° ± ¾° which indicates, I think, that all we need is roughly about ½° accuracy in the home alignment camber tool. (Is my math correct?)
In fact, I think that's why a plumb bob worked in the Yodatech home alignment DIY (i.e., 0°).
Since you bring up the great point about accuracy, may I ask:
Q: What accuracy do we need for camber measurements on our 3rd-generation 4Runners?
Q: Does at least ½° accuracy seem reasonable to you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98Base4R
observe the water marks the tires make.
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That's an interesting idea for checking camber!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98OzarksRunner
My guess is that the right tools would cost far more than the alignment (~$60)
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I agree. Cost is a relevant factor when selecting a tool.
To quick-price the alternative, I just called Capitol Toyota in San Jose.
Here's their pricing for what I'd need to do for the current problem.
1. Check front end components = $145 (exclusive of repairs)
2. Alignment = $88 (Note: an alignment w/o a prior check would be a waste of money in this case, even if the ultimate problem turns out to be 'only' the alignment because you can't do it in the reverse order!)
So the cost, for me, is roughly $150 + $100 ~= $250, which becomes (roughly) my initial budget for the caster gauge. If I can identify the problem for about $250, then I break even with having Toyota identify the problem.
Note: If you can show me an alignment shop in the Silicon Valley who does an alignment for appreciably less than $88, I would be thankful as that changes the math (but I called around before posting this query and found that this is a pretty good price in this area).
The good news is that we can use the camber gauge again and again and again, which makes its ultimate cost about 1/10 th the original cost, which is roughly about $25 per use over time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98OzarksRunner
you're probably not going to get it measured correctly down to .25 degree
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Accuracy is definitely relevant.
What 'accuracy' do you think we need, given the spec is - ¼° ± ¾° (and given that one wheel may be grossly out of spec)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 98OzarksRunner
An alignment is much cheaper than one tire, much less two.
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An alignment out here is roughly around $100 ... which is roughly the price of one tire, certainly not anywhere near the price of two tires (out here anyway).
But that's all moot because the topic is camber gauges that fulfill, I think, these conditions:
I) Accurate enough (how much accuracy do we need given Toyota specs are ±¾°)?
II) Cheap enough, i.e., roughly under around $250 (which means the cost per alignment is about $25 assuming it will be used ten times in my lifetime)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackCat914
buy 2 new tires and then align.
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That's a different issue than what tool to use. That information will eventually be useful for the upcoming first-ever Toyota-4Runner.org 3rd-gen garage alignment diy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stick Figure
find a shop that specializes in frame repair.
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The point of this thread is the tool. May I ask if these are the key specs we should strive to satisfy?
a) Somewhere around ½° accuracy?
b) Somwhere less than about $250 in cost?
Last edited by mom; 08-15-2012 at 05:58 PM.
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08-15-2012, 02:08 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Boston MA
Age: 40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
Q: Where did you buy your tools for checking your front camber at home?
And do you use the tools shown in the FSM?
forum which had camber in the title, but not a single 3rd-gen thread showed what tools they used nor the procedure they used to check camber at home.
The closest I found was this Yotatech home alignment DIY:
* 86-95 Trucks & 4Runners 2nd/3rd gen pickups, and 1st/2nd gen 4Runners with IFS
Which, amazingly, used a plumb bob.
But it's for the wrong model years (mine is a 1997 2WD Base 4Runner) so I'm not sure how much applies.
Q: What tools do you use and where do you buy them when you check your front camber at home?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
Thanks for the advice. I'm shocked that there isn't a single 3rd-generation 4Runner home alignment DIY on this entire forum!
Let's hope we can find a good supplier for the necessary camber measurements.
Here's a picture showing why I think my camber is grossly off, by the way ... the tread is worn off to the belts in just about 12K miles (even though the vehicle was aligned prior).
Notice the eccentric on that side of the vehicle is set vastly different than the complementary eccentric for the other side:
Passenger side front eccentric:
Note: The yellow was done by me prior to the alignment ... so it shows how much the alignment guy moved the eccentric.
Note: I don't trust any alignment shops anymore - after having been burned twice by the crooks.
Driver's side front eccentric:
Note: The rust is from unrelated battery acid spillage.
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Take a step back before jumping right into doing your own alignment... Make sure you fully understand what an alignment is before shunning the shops.
First, camber is the same animal no matter the model, year, etc., they just adjust differently and have different specs. The procedure in the yotatech link would not change 1 iota if it were written specifically for the 3rd gen (except for the pics and video's, which don't show up for me anyway). The measurement system he describes is valid for any vehicle on the road; you don't need a toyota brand ruler to measure the size of your toyota wheels.
Second, even if you diligently follow this system, you still won't be able to match the accuracy of a shop grade alignment system. Not all shops have the latest and greatest, but the last shop I went to had an $80k optical machine that gave the live readout on the screen, and the tech just had to adjust while staring at the screen; super easy to get it dead center in spec. That isn't to say they won't still screw it up (my steering wheel didn't get centered properly), but as far as the alignment goes, it is way more foolproof than doing it in your driveway. Even lower tech alignment machines will be better than plumb lines and tape measures.
What do you mean by "having been burned twice by the crooks"? The alignment shop screwed you over twice, or just "shops" in general? I agree with everyone that has suggested looking for a better shop, or watching the tech do it (if they'll let you). Actually understand what the alignment is before you watch them do it, ask questions, and above all, be very friendly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
Q: Where did you buy your tools for checking your front camber at home?
And do you use the tools shown in the FSM?
Note: I searched for, and read all the threads in the 3rd gen T4Rs forum which had camber in the title, but not a single 3rd-gen thread showed what tools they used nor the procedure they used to check camber at home.
The closest I found was this Yotatech home alignment DIY:
* 86-95 Trucks & 4Runners 2nd/3rd gen pickups, and 1st/2nd gen 4Runners with IFS
Which, amazingly, used a plumb bob.
But it's for the wrong model years (mine is a 1997 2WD Base 4Runner) so I'm not sure how much applies.
Q: What tools do you use and where do you buy them when you check your front camber at home?
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There are lots of ways you can measure camber, you have to decide which way is best for you at home (meaning which can you get the most accurate, reliable measurement with)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
This thread is about the tools needed for checking camber, whether or not there is tire wear.
A separate thread about the tire-wear problem is here:
- [URL="http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/118388-advice-sought-likely-cause-premature-front-right-tire-wear-11k-miles.html"]This thread is all about obtaining the camber measurement tools at a reasonable price for home use.
The camber spec for my 4Runner is ¼° ± ¾° which indicates all we need is about ¾° or ½° accuracy in the home alignment camber tool.
In fact, that's why a plumb bob worked in the Yodatech home alignment DIY (i.e., 0°).
I'm looking for a reasonably priced camber-test tool that will get us at least ¾° or ½° accuracy.
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Don't assume this is possible. Less than 1° accuracy is decently tight. it's nothing for porfessional equipment, but that is way out of the price range, and since not many people do their own alignments (like nearly no one), there isn't much market for at home tools for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
I agree. Cost is a factor. I just called Capitol Toyota in San Jose. Here's the pricing:
1. Check front end components = $145 (exclusive of repairs)
2. Alignment = $88
So the cost, for me, is roughly $150 + $100 ~= $250, which becomes my initial budget for the caster gauge.
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Your cost would be $88 for an alignment. You don't need a front end inspection first. They are trying to get you to pay them extra for the privilege of them telling you need even more work done to your vehicle than the alignment, which they will happy to charge you even more to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
This is relevant. What 'accuracy' do you think we need, given the spec is ¼° ± ¾° (and given that one wheel may be grossly out of spec)?
An alignment out here is roughly around $100 ... which is roughly the price of one tire, certainly not anywhere near the price of two tires (out here anyway).
But that's all moot because the topic is caster gauges that fulfill, I think, these conditions:
a) Accurate enough (how much accuracy do we need? I'm guessing ½° should be fine)?
b) Cheap enough, i.e., roughly under around $250.
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1/2° is probably acceptable, but I doubt that you can really achieve that in your driveway. You may be able to "measure" within 1/2°, but that will be with an unverifiable, un-calibrated measurement system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
That's a different issue than what tool to use. That information will eventually be useful for the upcoming first-ever Toyota-4Runner.org 3rd-gen garage alignment diy.
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Here's where I will sound a little bit like a jerk. Please don't do a DIY alignment write-up. I know you write extremely detailed and illustrated write-ups, which is fine, but honestly, because of the questions you are asking about this, I don't think you understand the subject well enough to provide sound advice for people to follow and do a good job (that won't mess up their shop alignment, or cause premature wear like you have).
I don't mean that as an insult, there's a reason engineers design the tools and adjustment mechanisms, and a reason that Toyota pays someone with a degree in engineering good money to design and write the procedure for the shops. It is not as simple as it looks. If it were, then Toyota wouldn't have to include it in the FSM, it would just be a common procedure like pumping up a tire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mom
The point of this thread is the tool. May I ask if these are the key specs we should strive to satisfy?
a) About ½° accuracy?
b) About $250 in cost?
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You cannot meet the 1/2° accuracy because you cannot verify it. You may be able to get it acceptably aligned, but you cannot make any statements about X° accuracy. If you understand wheel alignment, your measurement system, etc. then you can take the risk upon yourself to do your own alignment in your own way, but you cannot write up a DIY saying that your method works, and gets the vehicle within spec.
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Imp. Jade Mica with Oak Leather Interior, Field Monitor Unit - B&M Tranny Cooler - SG2 - New (to me) rear axle assembly - Goodyear Duratrac 265/75-16 - 1.8" Ironman Front Lift, OME 906/Procomp 9000 Shocks
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-ge...ld-thread.html
Last edited by Nelsonmd; 08-15-2012 at 02:12 PM.
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08-15-2012, 02:13 PM
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#12
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you need guide plates to allow the tire to set in a neutral position.
aswell as a way to properly connect the caster/camber gauge to the wheel. generally a wheel clamp is used. these parts are very expensive. i think the wheel clamps are around $250 each.
for the price of the correct tools, you would be able to purchase a dozen alignments. not to mention, even with the tools, if you dont know what you're doing, how do you know the ends results will be what you want?
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08-15-2012, 02:17 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevada
you need guide plates to allow the tire to set in a neutral position.
aswell as a way to properly connect the caster/camber gauge to the wheel. generally a wheel clamp is used. these parts are very expensive. i think the wheel clamps are around $250 each.
for the price of the correct tools, you would be able to purchase a dozen alignments. not to mention, even with the tools, if you dont know what you're doing, how do you know the ends results will be what you want?
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Hmmmmm, that was a much more succinct way of saying what I said... I think I wasted 15 minutes of my life typing...
__________________
2000 SR5 3.4L V6 Automatic 4x4, e-locker, 175k Miles, Rust
Imp. Jade Mica with Oak Leather Interior, Field Monitor Unit - B&M Tranny Cooler - SG2 - New (to me) rear axle assembly - Goodyear Duratrac 265/75-16 - 1.8" Ironman Front Lift, OME 906/Procomp 9000 Shocks
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-ge...ld-thread.html
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08-15-2012, 02:18 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
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also, having a tool with 1/2* of accuracy wont help. it needs to be correct.
if you have a 1/2 to play with, and the vehicle allows 1/2 for its specificed range, you could be a FULL degree out, if they both end up being "off" the same direction.
or you could have one side off 1 degree to the positive, and the other side could be off 1 degree to the negative.
this is BAD, and will likely cause a bad pull, aswell as excessive tire wear.
a driveway alignment is a bad idea. unless its just to get you to the shop to have it done correctly.
alignments are cheap compared to tires.
Last edited by nevada; 08-15-2012 at 03:26 PM.
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08-15-2012, 03:23 PM
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#15
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Senior Member
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The other thing that I don't know if it has been mentioned is the Caster vs Camber adjustment. Most of the tools that you have posted will work for adjusting camber, the problem is how easy it is to absolutely screw your caster up trying to bring the camber into spec.
I'm about as big of a DIYer as you will find and work in the auto field (have for over 16 years) but alignments are one of those things that I have learned are easier to pay someone else to do than to buy everything you need to do it right at home.
I have adjusted camber as said before with a angle finder and 2x4 and have used two equal length pieces of angle iron clamped to the rotors to adjust toe. You can certainly get things close enough to drive to an alignment shop or to get your off road vehicle set up well enough to crawl over rocks.
I would still suggest to find a GOOD alignment shop (like the one SCRunner12 suggested) and make sure they stand behind their work to take care of a vehicle that sees high speeds and daily driving on concrete where tire where and vehicle stability is a major concern.
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