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Old 08-22-2017, 10:20 AM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THESS View Post
As instructions stated above, the link brings you to the newsletter sign up. You submit your email for them to send you the application. Once you receive and submit said application, you will be entered into the pilot program group. Magnuson will pick a very limited amount of 4Runner and FJ owners to receive the first XX amount prior to full release. ALso stated above, be patient for the application, it will be sent when Magnuson is ready. But I can say that that moment is sooner than you think
A bit of confusion here. Many of us have signed up for the Mag news letter a long time ago.. Are they planning to send the application to all newsletter subscribers?
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Old 08-22-2017, 10:23 AM #17
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Also - you should consider dyno with the OEM crossover pipe and with an aftermarket one. The OEM crossover is pretty restrictive. What you see underneath in the flattened pipe is only the outer pipe - there's another one inside of that that's smaller diameter. So one bank is a bit more restricted than the other.

I'm really interested in this if it checks all the boxes. I was definitely a naysayer before I hear reports of it being a lot more powerful than the single VVTI version. If it's actually 350+hp at 5k rpms, i'm intrigued. As of now the best power option is a 2010 4cyl with a turbo. They reliably make 230rwhp under 5k rpms. I hope this gives an option to beat that.

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Old 08-22-2017, 11:34 AM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
Boost level?

What about fuel - What tuning is done? I mean more than "we flash your ECU" - what are you actually doing to the fuel map, did you break the encryption or get access from Toyota? Is there already an OEM fuel map for boost you just access or did you re-write it? Is it closed loop dynamic learning still? What kind of AFR are you seeing at half and full throttle?

Does the tune increase redline?

When you get hp numbers - 2500rpm hp is far more important than 6,000 rpm hp. Can you get an accurate measurement at say 1500 and 2500 rpms?

Does the tune change throttle input and/or shift points?

Does it play nice with crawl control?

In 4lo the throttle map changes and the idle rpm in gear goes up - does this still play nice for rock crawling with those changes?

It looks like it uses an auxiliary radiator for the intercooler rather than the OEM cooling system. Is that correct? If so where does the intercooler radiator live? Specifically does it interfere with our winches (in front of the lower center of the radiator) or have an issue with air flow for folks with winches? Same question for transmission coolers. Basically - where do you mount the radiator and how is it mounted?
For reference - this is where many/most winches live:

Just a few starter questions. Thanks!
I'll give you my answers, which are in no way verified... but I'm pretty confident they are accurate. LOL Would be nice to hear from Mag though....

Boost level - 5-6psi.

Fuel- They got access to the ECU. Changes are made for the larger injectors and possibly some other tweaks for SD and MAF readings. The MAF is still in charge and most likely can read enough air for the peak power levels. Doubt you will get more details than this from anyone... The ECUs have been broken/accessed in some way. There are actually a few tuners out there who can dyno tune these trucks now. I'm not sure what tools they are using.. but thing are out there and in a few peoples hands. Plenty of tuned tundras... and they are starting to do FJs and 4Rs... Fuel pump is still in question, I'm wondering if they include a higher volume pump or a booster.. or if the stock pump has enough flow.

Red line stays the same for sure.

Won't get an accurate measurement on low end RPM hp/tq without pulling the motor and putting it on an engine dyno or running a manual transmission. Finding a 2010+ FJ with a manual and AWD would be the best option (if they made those after 2010).

I imagine there were some throttle mapping and slight tweaks to the trans tuning. This is common practice on the Tundras.

I can't imagine any impact on crawl control.

The heat exchanger is shown in the other supercharger thread. It looks like it is small enough and up high enough to work with any bumper or winch... It sits up high behind the center bracket.
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:04 PM #19
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The problem is none of the tunes actually work - I've yet to see any repeatable dyno gains that are outside the margin of error. The Orange Virus tune had zero bump IIRC. The BD one is similar. Maybe a few hp on 91, but that's probably just the oem tune. Accessing the CAN signal is a far cry from rewriting the algorithm - if you could even figure out where in the memory you'd write it to and how the indexing of the memory is organized. There's a gap there that no one has solved to my knowledge.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:39 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
The problem is none of the tunes actually work - I've yet to see any repeatable dyno gains that are outside the margin of error. The Orange Virus tune had zero bump IIRC. The BD one is similar. Maybe a few hp on 91, but that's probably just the oem tune. Accessing the CAN signal is a far cry from rewriting the algorithm - if you could even figure out where in the memory you'd write it to and how the indexing of the memory is organized. There's a gap there that no one has solved to my knowledge.
Not sure what you are referring to. No need to rewrite the OS (or algorithm that you are referring to it) .... just the ability to modify the reference tables. They have the info and so do a few others. Not sure how they got it and the ability to decrypt.. but it is something pretty recent. The tunes seem to work.. but you can't squeeze much more out of a NA motor with no other modifications. There is some power lurking.. but not something that will jump out at you as huge gains... Just look at the magnuson Tundra... It works fine and makes over 500 hp....


I've tuned a lot of cars in the past.. via mapped out ECUs... and it's honestly not that complex for lower HP scenarios where the MAF can still work. It gets tricky and time consuming as hell when doing pure speed density.. but I really doubt that is necessary here. You get there quickly over 800hp or so typically, but 350-500 is all doable by OEM electronics now. The MAF readings just work as long as you have enough injector....

If you want to talk to someone who is able to dyno tune current Toyota stuff contact these guys... https://daptuning.com/

They don't have any mail order tunes yet, but are offering local dyno tunes in Dallas and will eventually offer a library of mail order once they have enough hands on library. Not sure where they got their stuff... but its clearly out there as I have seen a few popping up stating they now have the ability.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:06 PM #21
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I guess I need to learn more about the ECU on these vehicles. My understanding is that folks like DAP can re-write some fixed values - like shift point in 1st gear under WOT. Values that are set and do not change. Redline. And values for the open loop operations. The fuel, spark, valve, etc. maps should be "smart" as I understand them. Meaning they constantly overwrite the existing maps for closed loop based on knock sensor readings and I'm not sure what else. Maybe the o2 sensor readings. So remapping those parameters for closed loop operation would only last long enough for the ECU to relearn again. I think that's why DAP only gets 15-20hp, which is probably an adjustment to WOT open loop presets. Without the ability to rewrite the goal seek values, I don't know how you'd have any sort of lasting solution for normal operational benefits. I don't see any tuner making any headway on that sort of tune.

My hope is that Magnuson has access to the ECU to make more complex adjustments, or that Toyota already has them built into the software and Magnuson as a former OEM supplier knows how to access the alternate options in the ECU. It may be as simple as turning them on and off. There's just a lot I don't know about the ECU.

I hope they will give us at least a high level explanation of what they're doing so we can make an informed decision about the product. Even if it's just "we're tuning open loop because that's where the engine is at risk, and closed loop can already manage the supercharger" or an explanation that they can flash some reference values that are non-learn values and get safe AFRs. They certainly don't need to open up the playbook - but at least some sort of information to show that it's not the vaporware from 90% of the mail order performance options. Obviously they've been doing this a long time. I'm not challenging their reputation. Just hoping for a little bit of information about what I'd actually be doing to my vehicle.
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Old 08-22-2017, 02:07 PM #22
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Pretty sure the same as with any vehicle warranty that has a non-oem item added?????

Quote:
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What is the impact of the Toyota warranty?
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:10 PM #23
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Quote:
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I guess I need to learn more about the ECU on these vehicles. My understanding is that folks like DAP can re-write some fixed values - like shift point in 1st gear under WOT. Values that are set and do not change. Redline. And values for the open loop operations. The fuel, spark, valve, etc. maps should be "smart" as I understand them. Meaning they constantly overwrite the existing maps for closed loop based on knock sensor readings and I'm not sure what else. Maybe the o2 sensor readings. So remapping those parameters for closed loop operation would only last long enough for the ECU to relearn again. I think that's why DAP only gets 15-20hp, which is probably an adjustment to WOT open loop presets. Without the ability to rewrite the goal seek values, I don't know how you'd have any sort of lasting solution for normal operational benefits. I don't see any tuner making any headway on that sort of tune.

My hope is that Magnuson has access to the ECU to make more complex adjustments, or that Toyota already has them built into the software and Magnuson as a former OEM supplier knows how to access the alternate options in the ECU. It may be as simple as turning them on and off. There's just a lot I don't know about the ECU.
That is not how most ECUs work. There are really 2 parts to it. The calibration data and the OS. The calibration data also includes a small section of learned trims for various things like idle air, knock retard, fuel trims....)

They typically use the same OS across many vehicles and engines.... but the calibration completely changes.... There is often even a calibration for how many cylinders... The OSs are that generic and I've actually played with trying to reverse engineer a few in the past. It is a lot of code much of it is unused on a given platform.

Closed loop operation (anything part throttle) is constantly learning fuel trims based on 02 feedback, but it never re-writes any of the basic calibration tables (like what frequency on the MAF sensor equals what airflow) it just updates short and long term fuel trims. These trims are then used in the closed loop fueling calculations to determine how long to pulse the injector.... You typically can adjust targets for both open and closed loop. Once your under any load.... the targets for AF change... so it typically ignores any feedback at that point. However, these newer Toyota's do have wide band o2s.. so there could be some WOT feedback still active. This would be a good thing...

If you just threw a SC on this motor and dropped in some bigger injectors.. It would run like poop. Even in closed loop it would be so rich that it would just wash down the cylinders. However, if you just update the calibration to tell it the size of the injectors (which is always a calibration setting). It will just run fine at part throttle with no other changes. That is the magic of a MAF sensor. It knows how much air the motor is pulling in...

At WOT however, there would probably be too much timing and not enough fuel for FI (since the cal is very NA oriented and FI typically needs a lower AF ratio, cooler plugs, and less timing under boost)... So you would need dial some calibration back and some up. What is available and what is changed is sort of black magic depending on the particular ECU. There is often 20 or 30 different ways to get the same result. The calculations are very multi faceted.... In the end you need it to put in enough fuel to hit the target AF, and run the right amount of timing so that it does not detonate...

Bottom line, it's not a problem if you have access to the ECU and know the maps and Mag is not new to this.. They have done it over and over, so I'm pretty sure it will work just fine. Now, the canned tunes are usually crap in terms of maximum power, but just like Toyota... they simply dial it in for reliability vs cutting edge output.

I'm not one that believes there is gobs of power in these motors available with just with a tune.. there is some drivability improvements available... but you won't see those on a dyno anyway. The only time you will see tune only numbers jumping big time is turbos.. Those are almost always turned down big time from the factory for obvious reasons.
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:25 PM #24
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Old 08-22-2017, 03:50 PM #25
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Signed up e-mail! Exciting!

Thanks for the thread @THESS ! I hope I can make the POC group.
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Old 08-22-2017, 05:05 PM #26
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Quote:
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That is not how most ECUs work. There are really 2 parts to it. The calibration data and the OS. The calibration data also includes a small section of learned trims for various things like idle air, knock retard, fuel trims....)

They typically use the same OS across many vehicles and engines.... but the calibration completely changes.... There is often even a calibration for how many cylinders... The OSs are that generic and I've actually played with trying to reverse engineer a few in the past. It is a lot of code much of it is unused on a given platform.

Closed loop operation (anything part throttle) is constantly learning fuel trims based on 02 feedback, but it never re-writes any of the basic calibration tables (like what frequency on the MAF sensor equals what airflow) it just updates short and long term fuel trims. These trims are then used in the closed loop fueling calculations to determine how long to pulse the injector.... You typically can adjust targets for both open and closed loop. Once your under any load.... the targets for AF change... so it typically ignores any feedback at that point. However, these newer Toyota's do have wide band o2s.. so there could be some WOT feedback still active. This would be a good thing...

If you just threw a SC on this motor and dropped in some bigger injectors.. It would run like poop. Even in closed loop it would be so rich that it would just wash down the cylinders. However, if you just update the calibration to tell it the size of the injectors (which is always a calibration setting). It will just run fine at part throttle with no other changes. That is the magic of a MAF sensor. It knows how much air the motor is pulling in...

At WOT however, there would probably be too much timing and not enough fuel for FI (since the cal is very NA oriented and FI typically needs a lower AF ratio, cooler plugs, and less timing under boost)... So you would need dial some calibration back and some up. What is available and what is changed is sort of black magic depending on the particular ECU. There is often 20 or 30 different ways to get the same result. The calculations are very multi faceted.... In the end you need it to put in enough fuel to hit the target AF, and run the right amount of timing so that it does not detonate...

Bottom line, it's not a problem if you have access to the ECU and know the maps and Mag is not new to this.. They have done it over and over, so I'm pretty sure it will work just fine. Now, the canned tunes are usually crap in terms of maximum power, but just like Toyota... they simply dial it in for reliability vs cutting edge output.

I'm not one that believes there is gobs of power in these motors available with just with a tune.. there is some drivability improvements available... but you won't see those on a dyno anyway. The only time you will see tune only numbers jumping big time is turbos.. Those are almost always turned down big time from the factory for obvious reasons.


To add to this, DAP (Dustin) is a very cool guy and will take all the time in the world to explain what he does and how it effects the vehicle. I haven't had the ability to use his services yet on my S/C tundra (because of where I live) and because I have a smaller pulley and a few other things, he absolutely must have the vehicle in hand. Which I respect, as most companies in the past (like SCT, Bullydog, Diablo, etc) will just throw out canned tunes and say "good luck".

Magnuson has been selling a Charger and fit kit for the tundra for some time now since TRD has discontinued, and they have been running very well for people. MUCH better than people using the Unichip and other forms of bandaids for tuning (especially with a Flex Fuel truck). So I'm confident they will be doing this setup correctly. Just my opinion

The beauty of what DAP does is in the drivability. He reduces the torque management and dials in the characteristics of the ECU to make it much more enjoyable to drive and use the power you already have. This won't really show up on a dyno.

For me, on my tundra, power is not something I have a shortage of. I just want to be able to utilize what I already have without the ECU/TCU pulling timing and dialing back transmission performance.
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Old 08-22-2017, 05:44 PM #27
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Old 08-22-2017, 06:32 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argyle Edison View Post
To add to this, DAP (Dustin) is a very cool guy and will take all the time in the world to explain what he does and how it effects the vehicle. I haven't had the ability to use his services yet on my S/C tundra (because of where I live) and because I have a smaller pulley and a few other things, he absolutely must have the vehicle in hand. Which I respect, as most companies in the past (like SCT, Bullydog, Diablo, etc) will just throw out canned tunes and say "good luck".

Magnuson has been selling a Charger and fit kit for the tundra for some time now since TRD has discontinued, and they have been running very well for people. MUCH better than people using the Unichip and other forms of bandaids for tuning (especially with a Flex Fuel truck). So I'm confident they will be doing this setup correctly. Just my opinion

The beauty of what DAP does is in the drivability. He reduces the torque management and dials in the characteristics of the ECU to make it much more enjoyable to drive and use the power you already have. This won't really show up on a dyno.

For me, on my tundra, power is not something I have a shortage of. I just want to be able to utilize what I already have without the ECU/TCU pulling timing and dialing back transmission performance.
Yep, torque management is a huge issue on the 5th gens ... It won't show on a dyno... It's all about the shifts and boy do you feel it kicking in
on these things.

If I end up with the mag I'll probably run it for a while with their canned tune and then take it to him to get it dialed in a little better. I'm only a few hours away. There is just no way for a one size fits all tune to work perfectly. I'm not looking to make gobs of power though.. just more fun to drive. And this truck will eventually have a solid axle and some monster tires if the power-train can turn it.
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1989 Hilux - 22RE, SAS, hydro assist, Full Exo cage, dual ultimate cases, RCVs, 529s w Detroit locker rear + ARB front, Diamond Axle, bead locks, 40s.
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:58 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wfo9 View Post
Yep, torque management is a huge issue on the 5th gens ... It won't show on a dyno... It's all about the shifts and boy do you feel it kicking in
on these things.

If I end up with the mag I'll probably run it for a while with their canned tune and then take it to him to get it dialed in a little better. I'm only a few hours away. There is just no way for a one size fits all tune to work perfectly. I'm not looking to make gobs of power though.. just more fun to drive. And this truck will eventually have a solid axle and some monster tires if the power-train can turn it.
Looks like it gets around pretty good already man. Nice profile pic

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Old 08-22-2017, 09:18 PM #30
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As someone who has owned three vehicles over 400whp, I'm very intrigued. One thing the 5th gen lacks is power. If Toyota would mate an 8 speed trans to the 4R, I would be happy.

I'd be even happier with a supercharger though...
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