07-16-2018, 07:57 AM
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#136
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Elite Member
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Eastern USA
Posts: 18,770
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Elite Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Eastern USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatraBlue
The 4Runner is a high center of gravity shoebox with truck tires. It will never be a sports car or handle like a sports car. I’ve owned one for over 14 years and it has never been the vehicle I would (or could) drive on a daily basis. If the body roll was ever bad enough to cause uncontrollable understeer I would just replace the rear bar with a larger one. Of course the truck tires will give out well before any suspension gimmick entices anyone to make a Nordschleife run.
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Replace rear bar with thicker you say...and that will cripple the best part of the suspension off-road...the rear axle. Not good. Now, you see why KDSS is so good. There is no compromise...better body motion control around corners on-road AND more wheel travel off-road.
High center gravity...sure but not that bad. Why? Frame is where weight is...and that is low. The problem with non-KDSS is that suspension is soft for off-road work. This makes it body roll quite a bit around corners.
Gimmick? Hood scoop is a gimmick. TRD badges are gimmicks. 27.5” of water fording is a gimmick.
KDSS a gimmick? Nah, it actually works as advertised. No compromise on-road OR off-road. Have cake and eat it too...well a $2000 cake!
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07-16-2018, 10:29 AM
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#137
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Utah
Posts: 4,975
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Senior Member
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Location: Utah
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I think we've covered this before - but two points seem to be a little lost.
First: KDSS is not only extra suspension travel. It is forced articulation - and that means it also stabilizes the body and centers it between the two axles. That also means that it balances the weight between the 4 tires. And that's a big deal for things like rock crawling. It is limited in travel range - which is it's achilles heel. The basic idea is the holy grail of rock crawling suspension. The lack of travel is where it could use some help. Off the shelf it's the best suspension on the road and in the rocks of any 4runner model. And that's important. The 4Runner isn't a rock crawler. It's not a sports car. If you're not going off road - you should buy something else. If you're not doing a lot of highway time - you should also buy something else. There are better vehicles for both tasks. What the 4Runner excels at is doing both pretty well. And KDSS is perfectly suited for the mix.
Along with the body control is the benefits of controlling weight on a roof rack and on side hill. Here's a photo out of my windshield on Cadillac Hill. The pucker factor in that 80 was high... in my 4runner - not at all. KDSS keeps you from looking like that. That's where disconnected sway bars hurt you.
The second point is that the choice not to put it on the TRD Pro was based on cost. KDSS could pretty easily be fitted with any size of sway bar. So it would be very simple for Toyota to just bend a smaller diameter sway bar set to match the spring rate of the bar that comes on the TRD Pro. Then it would act the same as the PRO on the road and fast dirt, but also perform better in the rocks and other slow speed terrain.
There are a lot of different formulas to get to a suspension that works good on and off road. KDSS has a lot of limitations. Most importantly it's asymmetrical and has relatively short travel compared to something like a rock crawler. And it's difficult to modify for long travel. It's not the answer to everything or the only answer to great suspension performance.
It is a heck of a bargain in the USA. In Australia it's a minimum of $12,000 upgrade to get KDSS.
Last edited by Jetboy; 07-16-2018 at 10:45 AM.
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07-16-2018, 11:17 AM
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#138
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midland, MI
Age: 36
Posts: 1,992
Real Name: Charles
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midland, MI
Age: 36
Posts: 1,992
Real Name: Charles
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I think
@ Jetboy
nailed it - its a hell of a system to add to what the 4runner already does great at which is being pretty good at a lot but not the best at anything (rock crawling, dessert running, highway driving, etc. ) I think its gained so much popularity due to exactly that - not as rough as a Jeep , as large as a raptor or as docile as a highlander.
Without KDSS you mind as well be a poser.....
@LawnDart
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2014 Trail Edition Premium, 285/70/R17 BFG KM2, RadFlo 2.5" Coilovers and Rear Shocks, 50qt ARB Fridge, OTRATTW Switches, BudBuilt Bumpout Sliders, Gobi Rack + Ladder / 40" Rigid E2 /Rotopax and MaxTrax mounted, ARB CKMTA12, 270amp Alternator, Southern Style Slimline Hybrid Front Bumper w/ Warn Zeon 10S and Front Fogs, Metal Oil Canister, Sound Deadening Insulation w/ Focal Front Speakers,Black Weather Tech mats and custom pin striping & dents (the trees & bushes did it for free)
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07-16-2018, 06:43 PM
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#139
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2015
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,646
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Join Date: May 2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer
I think
@ Jetboy
nailed it - its a hell of a system to add to what the 4runner already does great at which is being pretty good at a lot but not the best at anything (rock crawling, dessert running, highway driving, etc. ) I think its gained so much popularity due to exactly that - not as rough as a Jeep , as large as a raptor or as docile as a highlander.
Without KDSS you mind as well be a poser.....
@LawnDart
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Uh. Okay.
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I don't own a 4Runner anymore.
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07-16-2018, 09:03 PM
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#140
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Member
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Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: East TN - Appalachian Mountains
Posts: 121
Real Name: Mark P
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Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: East TN - Appalachian Mountains
Posts: 121
Real Name: Mark P
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Speaking of posing. I put a FJC TT suspension on my KDSS 2018 ORP. It is awesome.
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Silver 2018 4Runner ORP w/ KDSS|Bilstein TRD FJC TTU & HD suspension|275 BFG KO2s|RSG sliders|RCI steel full skid set|Warn hybrid bumper|X20 winch w/ Southeast Overland Rope|DD Sport fogs & rear floods|22” X6 LED bar|Orange Boxx panels|Rhino-Rack Pioneer|Proline elite rear w/ dual swingouts & FrontRunner Table.
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07-16-2018, 09:53 PM
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#141
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midland, MI
Age: 36
Posts: 1,992
Real Name: Charles
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Midland, MI
Age: 36
Posts: 1,992
Real Name: Charles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LawnDart
Uh. Okay.
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Green text normally equates to sarcasm around here
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2014 Trail Edition Premium, 285/70/R17 BFG KM2, RadFlo 2.5" Coilovers and Rear Shocks, 50qt ARB Fridge, OTRATTW Switches, BudBuilt Bumpout Sliders, Gobi Rack + Ladder / 40" Rigid E2 /Rotopax and MaxTrax mounted, ARB CKMTA12, 270amp Alternator, Southern Style Slimline Hybrid Front Bumper w/ Warn Zeon 10S and Front Fogs, Metal Oil Canister, Sound Deadening Insulation w/ Focal Front Speakers,Black Weather Tech mats and custom pin striping & dents (the trees & bushes did it for free)
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07-17-2018, 11:29 AM
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#142
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 2018
Location: Tucson
Posts: 15
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Tucson
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Thanks for the information about KDSS, everyone.
So if you were me, would you get KDSS? Here is how I will use the vehicle:
- Will be a DD.
- Not concerned about on road comfort (I used to drive a fully built/locked Jeep XJ on 35s everyday to work and it was fine).
- I will eventually lift and build the 4runner (likely 3" lift and 33" tires).
- Trails around my area are mixed (some are tight and technical, some are open desert).
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07-17-2018, 12:25 PM
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#143
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,712
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Banned
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test drive one with KDSS, test drive one without KDSS, buy the one you like
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07-17-2018, 12:43 PM
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#144
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Elite Member
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Eastern USA
Posts: 18,770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Jack
Thanks for the information about KDSS, everyone.
So if you were me, would you get KDSS? Here is how I will use the vehicle:
- Will be a DD.
- Not concerned about on road comfort (I used to drive a fully built/locked Jeep XJ on 35s everyday to work and it was fine).
- I will eventually lift and build the 4runner (likely 3" lift and 33" tires).
- Trails around my area are mixed (some are tight and technical, some are open desert).
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Is money a problem? If not, then get the TRD PRO...instead of screwing around with aftermarket stuff.
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07-17-2018, 01:09 PM
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#145
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Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: PHX-LAX
Posts: 362
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@ Jetboy
awesome pic of that 80 on Cadillac Hill. Any pics of you on there?
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'12 Trail w/KDSS
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07-17-2018, 01:16 PM
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#146
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 2,712
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Banned
Join Date: Aug 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thai
Is money a problem? If not, then get the TRD PRO...instead of screwing around with aftermarket stuff.
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if you are going to lift and build buying a TRD Pro seems like a huge waste of money
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07-17-2018, 01:17 PM
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#147
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 2018
Location: Tucson
Posts: 15
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Tucson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e60ral
test drive one with KDSS, test drive one without KDSS, buy the one you like
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I agree with this, but that will only show me on road characteristics since dealerships do not like you to take their vehicles off road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thai
Is money a problem? If not, then get the TRD PRO...instead of screwing around with aftermarket stuff.
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This has crossed my mind and money is not a problem, but I struggle with paying $10k extra for the PRO when I might be swapping to a different suspension in a few years. In other words, I'm not entirely convinced the extra cost for the PRO is justified.
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07-17-2018, 01:17 PM
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#148
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Junior Member
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Join Date: May 2018
Location: Tucson
Posts: 15
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Junior Member
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Tucson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e60ral
if you are going to lift and build buying a TRD Pro seems like a huge waste of money
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Agreed.
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07-17-2018, 01:23 PM
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#149
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Member
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Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Marin
Posts: 68
Real Name: Dave
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Marin
Posts: 68
Real Name: Dave
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Why no KDSS upgrades?
I have KDSS and really like it. This is my DD as well as my AT (Adventure Traveler). I recently got a RTT, and hardly even notice it's up there. It's rock solid.
I also just got a 3" lift (Toytec Boss w/ HD springs). My mechanic, who's highly competent having built a lot of race cars over the years, but had never worked on a KDSS vehicle, raised one concern. After installing the lift, while in full droop (on the rack), the KDSS bar interferes with the sway bar. He said this should only be a problem if I am jumping my 4R. Now I don't plan on doing any jumps, but it got me thinking. It seems everyone's complaints with KDSS have to do with the length and geometry of the components. Why have none of the aftermarket people designed parts that are more compatible with bigger and longer travel suspension?
I am very happy with how my truck now, and am about to take off on a 10 day adventure. Can't wait to see how it is now off road...
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