User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-14-2013, 01:46 PM #1
TOY2G TOY2G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,004
Real Name: Nathan
TOY2G will become famous soon enough
TOY2G TOY2G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,004
Real Name: Nathan
TOY2G will become famous soon enough
Tire Tech 101

I am passing on some information that I have learned over the years selling bulk tires via a little company called PepBoys. I had the opportunity to spend two full days in a class with Hankook tires, and took away some valuable information that may be useful to people who……buy tires. Below is a recap of my 10 years of training and personal experience. Please remember I am trying to be as ambiguous as possible to avoid an outpouring of opinions.

Tires rubber is made of compounds, some hard, some soft and some in the middle, much like porridge. All tires are not created equal, and all compounds do not have the same purpose. As an example a high natural rubber compound is hard, this gives you a long lasting tire (think older BFG ATs). With the harder rubber and higher tread life there are a few draw backs. Natural rubber will dry out and crack between the treads much faster, they will also get harder over time making them a handful on wet roads, and lastly they are loud on hard pack. Many Companies still use a higher rubber compound for a couple reasons, it’s cheaper, and the tread does last longer. When marketing tires, a high tread life number is important to the end user for the longest lasting tire. Known manufactures that use a low silicate (or high natural rubber) compounds include; BFG, Bridgestone, Firestone, Maxxis and Michelin too name a few. Now I am referring only to AT and MT tires most common used in the off road market. Most, if not all of these guys do offer a high silicate tire, but in the passenger car lineup. These tires are called UHP or ultra-high performance tires, and are intended for luxury and or performance cars.

Several companies (including BFG) recognized the need for a higher silicate tire in the Off-Road and SUV market in recent years. Some have responded with new offerings and some have not. For instance BFG offers a KM2 mud tire. The KM2 tire that you can buy is a high natural rubber tire intended to get as many miles out of a mud tire as possible. So there is no mistaking, the KM2 does use a silicate compound; it is just very low silicate. What you may not know is that BFG make a KM2 that is a high silicate compound called “red label” and it is avail only to a handful of people on a list of…well…..very few people. I have had these on a friends Jeep and they are amazing. However BFG is no dummy, they know that the general public will look past things like noise and pavement traction if it gets them 6 more months out of a tire.

That said, there are tires out there that have gone to high silicate across the board; AT, MT, and HT tires alike. I will not venture to guess who “all” have made this change but I can name a couple. Hankook tires (mostly made in Korea and China) is a massive tire company, that up until recent years was an ORT (over the road truck) tire company. They broke into the passenger car light truck market and have continued to make an incredible tire. The Hankook RT03 (mud tire) is among if not the highest silicate tire on the market avail to the general public. They however are not alone. Cooper tires (USA made) are also high silicate tires, and our friends at Interco (AKA Super Swamper) have even pushed on the market a little with its Irok tire. Off brands like ProComp and Definity are made by Cooper but they do not use the same compound by any stretch of the imagination, lest anyone should tell you otherwise. Other known tires with higher silicate include (but not limited to) Pirelli, Nitto, and Toyo however it is not across the entire product line on many if any brand.

So what does a higher silicate get you? Well, for starters less noise, A LOT less. I have run Cooper, Hankook and Irok Mud tires on my vehicles and I can tell you that the Cooper and Hankook are as quite as an AT or HT and for the most part remain that quite for the full life. Mud tires tend to get louder as they wear down, but this can be due to air displacement and compound age, more than any other factor. UHP tires also offer the absolute best “BEST” wet traction. You will notice a direct relation with car tires: increase traction and wet performance = decreased tread life. It is not a secret science, race cars use a super soft compound that you can stab with your finger, they grip awesome, but it takes 3 sets to go 1000 miles. The principle does not change because you are not on a race track.
So in conclusion, you do have to make a choice and find the right compromise for your particular needs. Don’t let some guy at a counter tell you what tires are best for your vehicle. There is no escaping the physics behind it…softer grips better…..harder last longer. So find something that is “just right” for you.

This thread is for information only, what matters is what tire you want, so if you love Nitto and hate BFG that is a wonderful opinion and does not necessarily need to be expressed here on this thread.

TOY2G is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 02:07 PM #2
2008_4Runner_Sport's Avatar
2008_4Runner_Sport 2008_4Runner_Sport is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 70
2008_4Runner_Sport is on a distinguished road
2008_4Runner_Sport 2008_4Runner_Sport is offline
Member
2008_4Runner_Sport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 70
2008_4Runner_Sport is on a distinguished road
Thanks, I am sure a lot of people will learn something from this. Being a motorcycle enthusiast, I found it very important to educate yourself on tires more so than the average driver.
2008_4Runner_Sport is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 02:15 PM #3
TOY2G TOY2G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,004
Real Name: Nathan
TOY2G will become famous soon enough
TOY2G TOY2G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,004
Real Name: Nathan
TOY2G will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2008_4Runner_Sport View Post
Thanks, I am sure a lot of people will learn something from this. Being a motorcycle enthusiast, I found it very important to educate yourself on tires more so than the average driver.
Wonderful point, Motorcycle guys know that tire compound is everything, thank you.
TOY2G is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 02:34 PM #4
1engineer's Avatar
1engineer 1engineer is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern Appalachian Mountains
Age: 61
Posts: 9,947
Real Name: Greg
1engineer is a glorious beacon of light 1engineer is a glorious beacon of light 1engineer is a glorious beacon of light 1engineer is a glorious beacon of light 1engineer is a glorious beacon of light
1engineer 1engineer is offline
Moderator
1engineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Southern Appalachian Mountains
Age: 61
Posts: 9,947
Real Name: Greg
1engineer is a glorious beacon of light 1engineer is a glorious beacon of light 1engineer is a glorious beacon of light 1engineer is a glorious beacon of light 1engineer is a glorious beacon of light
Very good! This should help a lot of people. I will try to figure a way to put this in my top ten dissertation if I ever get around to completing it.
1engineer is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 05:51 PM #5
fourwd1's Avatar
fourwd1 fourwd1 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: the Socialist State of Maryland
Posts: 11,432
Real Name: The Chosen One
fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice
fourwd1 fourwd1 is online now
Moderator
fourwd1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: the Socialist State of Maryland
Posts: 11,432
Real Name: The Chosen One
fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice
This is probably the most useful post here in waay to long.

I'm so tired of the "How much is it worth" and "Should I buy this" posts.
__________________
- the Internet - the mother-ship of people who don't know much and aren't afraid to go public
'84 4Runner - ARBed 5.29s F&R, 4.7 & 2.28 t-cases, 2" drive train lift, BudBuilt x-member/skid, 30 spl Longs
'83 Toy P/U - Buick 231 V6, Holley 4 bbl, Weiand intake, Downey headers, TH350 w/700R4 low gearset,
'89 4Runner SR5 - stock
fourwd1 is online now   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 06:13 PM #6
JB.'s Avatar
JB. JB. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Nevada
Posts: 3,161
JB. will become famous soon enough
JB. JB. is offline
Senior Member
JB.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Nevada
Posts: 3,161
JB. will become famous soon enough
Good stuff.

On a simple level, much is summarized nicely by the magic triangle: Traction (emphasis on wet) -- Tread wear -- Rolling Resistance. Very hard to improve one without negatively affecting one or both of the others.

The triangle has been stretched and shaped over the years to produce better tires but the tire industry is highly competitive so each company is working within pretty much the same constraints.
__________________
2005 Limited V8
Bilstein 5100 at .85
5th gen SR5 springs
BFG AT KO2 LT265/70/17 Load C (Replaced Revo 2 LT265/70/17 Load E)
Hanna sliders

Last edited by JB.; 02-16-2013 at 05:12 PM.
JB. is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 06:54 PM #7
fourwd1's Avatar
fourwd1 fourwd1 is online now
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: the Socialist State of Maryland
Posts: 11,432
Real Name: The Chosen One
fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice
fourwd1 fourwd1 is online now
Moderator
fourwd1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: the Socialist State of Maryland
Posts: 11,432
Real Name: The Chosen One
fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice fourwd1 is just really nice
This is probably the most useful post here in waay to long.

I'm so tired of the "How much is it worth" and "Should I buy this" posts.
__________________
- the Internet - the mother-ship of people who don't know much and aren't afraid to go public
'84 4Runner - ARBed 5.29s F&R, 4.7 & 2.28 t-cases, 2" drive train lift, BudBuilt x-member/skid, 30 spl Longs
'83 Toy P/U - Buick 231 V6, Holley 4 bbl, Weiand intake, Downey headers, TH350 w/700R4 low gearset,
'89 4Runner SR5 - stock
fourwd1 is online now   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 06:05 AM #8
sooner02r1 sooner02r1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 210
sooner02r1 is on a distinguished road
sooner02r1 sooner02r1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Norman, OK
Posts: 210
sooner02r1 is on a distinguished road
Thank you sir! I too am cycle trash, and have known that increased traction generally means shorter life. I did NOT know however about how the different compounds affected these. I appreciate it, I will lean towards a silicate tire, as I don't like to run old tires anyway. Any idea what Falken is using in the Wild Peaks? I'm on Yokohama Geolandar ATs right now and they have worn like IRON, I'm guessing they are of the high natural rubber variety? I keep waiting for them to wear out, I think I'm going to just have to replace them with like 50% tread left, they're nearly 4 years old and have some weather cracking starting.
__________________
'98 Limited 4x4- 190k and counting!

Sway-a-Way 2.0s, OME 906s, 285/75/16 Yokohama Geolandar AT-S on KMC Enduro 16x8s, 30" LED, Cobra 18 WXSTII CB, Rhino Lined fenders/rockers.
sooner02r1 is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 10:24 AM #9
philsey's Avatar
philsey philsey is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,053
Real Name: Um, Phil?
philsey has a spectacular aura about philsey has a spectacular aura about
philsey philsey is offline
Elite Member
philsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,053
Real Name: Um, Phil?
philsey has a spectacular aura about philsey has a spectacular aura about
Very interesting post, read it twice.

But now that I have this information, how do I apply it? Are tires rated somehow, as to silicate vs rubber content?

Personally, I'd always opt for better braking and wet handling vs long mileage, but how do I know whether that's a Cooper or a Continental?
__________________
2010 Blizzard Pearl SR5/P - traded
2018 Superwhite SR5/P ... IS350 retrofit.
philsey is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 11:01 AM #10
TOY2G TOY2G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,004
Real Name: Nathan
TOY2G will become famous soon enough
TOY2G TOY2G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,004
Real Name: Nathan
TOY2G will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by sooner02r1 View Post
Thank you sir! I too am cycle trash, and have known that increased traction generally means shorter life. I did NOT know however about how the different compounds affected these. I appreciate it, I will lean towards a silicate tire, as I don't like to run old tires anyway. Any idea what Falken is using in the Wild Peaks? I'm on Yokohama Geolandar ATs right now and they have worn like IRON, I'm guessing they are of the high natural rubber variety? I keep waiting for them to wear out, I think I'm going to just have to replace them with like 50% tread left, they're nearly 4 years old and have some weather cracking starting.

It is very hard to determine what company uses what compound. Reason being, compound is the only real secret they can keep.
Tires round: Check
Tires black: Check
Tires Hold air: Check
Tires Ply: Check
Compound: Special recipe, Check

The best way to know would be to call and ask them straight out. "what tire do you have that will fit my needs and uses a high silicate compound).

This will not be the end all answer because even companies like BFG KM2 says "compound" witch is not very descriptive at all.... I wish there was a clear answer on what the tires you have, alas I do not have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philsey View Post
Very interesting post, read it twice.

But now that I have this information, how do I apply it? Are tires rated somehow, as to silicate vs rubber content?

Personally, I'd always opt for better braking and wet handling vs long mileage, but how do I know whether that's a Cooper or a Continental?
There are a couple way to help you decide...
#1 tires have a traction rating AA is the highest, then A, then B, then C. the down side to this rating system called UTQG (uniform tire quality grade) is the ranges are so far apart 2 A rated tires can be very different compounds.

Another way to check that is a bit more open to interpretation is the press test. When you are shopping for tires press your finger nail into the tire, or try to bend/twist the tire tread with your fingers. If it feels soft and flexible (again open to interpretation) it could be a better wet traction tire. To be more accurate with your evaluation of tire tread, feel several. Natural rubber is cheaper, so feel the cheap tires, they are likely natural rubber. There is not charge for poking tires so feel free to poke around until you feel you have a grasp on it.

Secondly, if you see a truck in the parking lot with a tire you are interested in, poke the tire. what you are looking for again is hardness. if the tire has a decent amount of tread left but the rubber is like a rock, it is likely a low silicate tire. Also take note of weather cracking vs tread wear.

here is the deal, you can ask people "hey I was thinking about getting that tire do you recommend it?" Problem with this, people do not like to think they made a bad buying choice, so most people are going to say they do recommend the tire they spent their money on.

You can combat this a little by a couple simple followup question "what do you like about it" or "what don't you like about it" and listen for the key words...last forever, quite, bad in rain, noisy, exc... Again you have to let them volunteer the information, because for the same reason as above you cannot just ask (with any reliability) "how are they in the rain?" you will likely get a report of all good, regardless of they actual truth.

Let me be clear, I chose the tires I run, because I have determined they are high silicate and I know..... there may be other tires out there better than what I am running, I just simply have not been in contact with them yet.

I hope this gives you a little more direction on how to use the OP information, it is not a fail proof system by any stretch of the imagination, however it may point you in the right direction. As JB said if you see a tire that has a high tread wear life, as a rule of thumb it has less silicate. If you see a tire that says it has great wet traction but lower tread wear, well it most likely has a higher silicate compound.

Last edited by TOY2G; 02-15-2013 at 02:43 PM. Reason: spelling
TOY2G is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 11:18 AM #11
philsey's Avatar
philsey philsey is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,053
Real Name: Um, Phil?
philsey has a spectacular aura about philsey has a spectacular aura about
philsey philsey is offline
Elite Member
philsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,053
Real Name: Um, Phil?
philsey has a spectacular aura about philsey has a spectacular aura about
@TOY2G I'm curious of your opinion of Consumer Reports' tire tests and ratings.

I'm not usually a fan of CR, but it appears they actually TEST tires vs say, Tire Rack, who it seems simply collects user's opinions.
__________________
2010 Blizzard Pearl SR5/P - traded
2018 Superwhite SR5/P ... IS350 retrofit.
philsey is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 12:10 PM #12
kenski's Avatar
kenski kenski is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southern California
Posts: 243
kenski is on a distinguished road
kenski kenski is offline
Member
kenski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Southern California
Posts: 243
kenski is on a distinguished road
Very informative post. I'm mostly impressed by your ability to use tread and thread interchangeably in all the right places.
kenski is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 12:22 PM #13
TOY2G TOY2G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,004
Real Name: Nathan
TOY2G will become famous soon enough
TOY2G TOY2G is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 3,004
Real Name: Nathan
TOY2G will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by philsey View Post
@TOY2G I'm curious of your opinion of Consumer Reports' tire tests and ratings.

I'm not usually a fan of CR, but it appears they actually TEST tires vs say, Tire Rack, who it seems simply collects user's opinions.

CR ratings are more respectable than retailer ratings. Like Discount Tire has the tires listed as best, better good........ I am pretty certain that is a profit rating rather than a quality rating.

However, just like my post above, CR have to be taken with a grain of salt, as all the rating are based on perceived evaluations of tires, and like I mentioned before people like to think they spent their money well, so the will give something they spent money on a higher rating based solely on that fact.

As an example, Dodge.... in the model years between 1997 and 2005 dodge was trying to streamline its production and bring the company profit back up. the result was a terrible string of misfortune as one new manufacture after another let them down. The interior of some models of truck were literally falling apart, not because Dodge built it wrong, but because the component manufactures cut corners and used cheaper material and production processes. Same with some suspension components that were shared across several platforms. the vehicles ran perfect, but fell apart to include wheel bearings, brake rotors, struts, and brake boosters. All this bad luck for Dodge and Dodge owners and if asked "how do you rate the overall quality of your 2001 Dodge 3/4 ton V10 4x4?" owners still in many cases are going to insist it is the best and most reliable truck they have ever owned. Same with Toyota, Ford, Chevy, Honda, and any other brand loving car owner. We tend to be in favor of what we spent out hard earned money on, and reality takes a back seat.

So CR ratings are a good reference, however people are unreliable, thus information is unreliable. Even reviews on Google can be lopsided. I tend to read the lower ratings on things and ignore the 5 star ratings. You will learn alot more from a bad review than a good one in some cases. Many if not most bad reviews are just as unreliable as the good ones, but often a bit more truthful.
TOY2G is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 12:24 PM #14
philsey's Avatar
philsey philsey is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,053
Real Name: Um, Phil?
philsey has a spectacular aura about philsey has a spectacular aura about
philsey philsey is offline
Elite Member
philsey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,053
Real Name: Um, Phil?
philsey has a spectacular aura about philsey has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenski View Post
Very informative post. I'm mostly impressed by your ability to use tread and thread interchangeably in all the right places.
Agree, I noticed that too. Guessing he even knows the difference between breaks and brakes.
__________________
2010 Blizzard Pearl SR5/P - traded
2018 Superwhite SR5/P ... IS350 retrofit.
philsey is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-16-2013, 03:33 AM #15
JB.'s Avatar
JB. JB. is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Nevada
Posts: 3,161
JB. will become famous soon enough
JB. JB. is offline
Senior Member
JB.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: So. Nevada
Posts: 3,161
JB. will become famous soon enough
Regarding Consumer Reports.

The tire rankings are based on extensive physical testing by engineers with access to a test track and technical equipment.

That's categorically different from just about anything out there I'm aware of. There could, of course, be hidden factors that might negatively affect the rankings reliability, but the testing doesn't share the obvious shortcomings of reviews, anecdotes, or isolated theory. The CR testing is also much better than the kind of advertiser safe testing we often see where the results are translated into flowery prose while protecting the tire from direct, quantitative comparison with other tires.

Bits of tire info are always interesting and useful, but they're always at least one step removed from what really matters -- actual tire performance (I have to chuckle when I say that, as message boards have convinced me that tire appearance often trumps everything) and actual performance is what CR seeks to measure -- directly.

I remain amazed that such a high quality resource (compared to alternatives) is so often ignored.

That is in no way diminishes the value of this thread. Many of the kinds of tires people are looking for on forums like this aren't tested by CR -- and carry no UTQG ratings, for that matter. Extra information is always helpful.
__________________
2005 Limited V8
Bilstein 5100 at .85
5th gen SR5 springs
BFG AT KO2 LT265/70/17 Load C (Replaced Revo 2 LT265/70/17 Load E)
Hanna sliders
JB. is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
tech help steven ryan New Members 0 03-16-2010 08:37 PM
Tech help please Edub246 Classic T4Rs 1 11-12-2009 10:25 AM
need some tech help floridaropes 4th Gen T4Rs 8 10-25-2009 11:59 PM
Tech info on our new V8. toyo 4th Gen T4Rs 25 05-23-2006 12:06 PM
Discount tire tech says no to 265/70/17 on my 4Runner Kawboy40 4th Gen T4Rs 3 12-12-2003 06:01 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:49 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
***This site is an unofficial Toyota site, and is not officially endorsed, supported, authorized by or affiliated with Toyota. All company, product, or service names references in this web site are used for identification purposes only and may be trademarks of their respective owners. The Toyota name, marks, designs and logos, as well as Toyota model names, are registered trademarks of Toyota Motor Corporation***Ad Management plugin by RedTyger
 
Copyright © 2020