Toyota: [Falling] Quality is Job One
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qballjr13
New member
Gee, you think this guy has something against Toyota? When he refers to the number of recalls growing every year do you think he took into consideration that every year Toyota is growing and selling more vehicles...which in turn means that if there is a recall then obviously the numbers are going to be higher? I think he conveniently left that part out. As of this morning Toyota is the number 1 selling brand in the world. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18286221 I think its only logical to say that the more vehicle sold the higher the numbers will be for recalls.
The other issue about truck sales tanking is something that will never happen. I am in the construction industry and as long as people work construction they will need trucks. Maybe the average buyer running out and buying a full-size 1/2 ton truck are slowing, but in the industry EVERYONE has or needs a truck. I think the Tundra is a major reason for Toyota coming in number 1 in sales. The Yaris, Prius and Hybrids are selling like wild fire but there are always the die hards (like all of us here) that want or need a truck/suv and we will always buy them.
So congrats to Toyota on the sales figures and please keep the quality up...no matter what is said about Toyota quality in that article my T4R is by far the best vehicle I have ever owned!
The other issue about truck sales tanking is something that will never happen. I am in the construction industry and as long as people work construction they will need trucks. Maybe the average buyer running out and buying a full-size 1/2 ton truck are slowing, but in the industry EVERYONE has or needs a truck. I think the Tundra is a major reason for Toyota coming in number 1 in sales. The Yaris, Prius and Hybrids are selling like wild fire but there are always the die hards (like all of us here) that want or need a truck/suv and we will always buy them.
So congrats to Toyota on the sales figures and please keep the quality up...no matter what is said about Toyota quality in that article my T4R is by far the best vehicle I have ever owned!
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peter78
Super Moderator
Wow, that is a big deal. I heard rumors it might happen, but after 76 years GM has always sold more cars than anyone. I remember just a few years ago when Toyota beat Ford for the number two slot.qballjr13 said:
I am not so sure how I feel about Toyota being number one,. I do hope GM or Ford will do better in the future.
Pirate VI
New member
I could be wrong on this, but it just seems to me that every time there is a toyota recal it is based on something that they found, or got a lot of complaints about, and is not based on accidents to to the bad part, or any deaths. It seems when ford recalls something it only comes after countless accidents due to the bad part and even a few deaths.
I would much rather have my car recalled because Toyota knew they screwed something up and want to make it right, than having something go wrong that will jeopardize my safety.
Again just something that it seems to me is always happening, but I don't read every recall report.
I would much rather have my car recalled because Toyota knew they screwed something up and want to make it right, than having something go wrong that will jeopardize my safety.
Again just something that it seems to me is always happening, but I don't read every recall report.
Thai
Elite Member
Pirate VI said:
But, Toyota also does not admit to mistakes either. Examples: sludging in Camrys, drivetrain clunk in 4runners/GX, numerous tranny problems in RX/Highlander, Camry V6, ES350, etc.. Although Toyota is still heads-and-shoulders above everyone else (except maybe Honda), it is not without fault. You should go to Clublexus.com and read up on ES350's complaints or go read up on Avalon's issues. These are real issues with newly designed Toyota/Lexus vehicles. From the current trend, it is true that the older Toyota designs are better built.
Thai
Elite Member
qballjr13 said:
You are right, but it did not used to be this way. Toyota usually scores excellent on newly designed vehicles. The Lexus LS400/430 scored the HIGHEST in it's first year on JD Powers (and just about every other surveys). Camrys, 4runners, Corollas, Lexus LX/SC, etc. all used to score tops and never had much of mechanical issues.
Pirate VI
New member
Thai said:
I agree that Toyota is not without fault, They have thier fair share of problems, the older Toyota's seem to be better built sometimes, and that Toyota's quality is probably slipping. I also agree though that Toyota and Honda are still the best quality out there.
It just seems that the problems that Toyotas are having, whether official recalls, TSBs, or issues that Toyota will not admit to (which I am sure is happening with every other manufacturer out there), seem to be less severe, and come after less complaints, accidents, and deaths than some other manufacturers.
Also I believe that a recall can be voluntary or government mandated. Recalls are for issues that have to be dealt with, and the consumer may not know about, and the TSBs are just bulletins to dealers on common smaller issues that owners may or may not have. I am not 100% positive on that though.
Northof49
New member
Some are, but engine sludge was definetly not a "real issue" of Toyota's. It was a few owners that neglected to do regular, or in many cases ANY maintenence. From there, a legal group picked it up and turned it into a class action suit to try and grab some quick cash, where Toyota was found not guilty. In every case, maintenence was either highly suspect or flat out non-existantThai said:
Every mechanic I've met, or talked with on the net about the issue says the same thing I've seen in person....all the first-hand examples are from lack of maintenence. The 2 examples at the local dealership had never had an oil change (or even the level checked) in over 50-60,000kms. Picked it up from the dealer brand new and drove it till it blew. Considering how many millions of those 3.0L V6's are out there (extremely popular motor), with 0 sludge problems, the problem is clear.
Also, lets take a look at the 2 of the largest Toyota recalls in the past few years;
Steering Center Link Recall: 89-95 4x4 4Runners and Pickups affected. A handful of failures on the continent, older vehicles, heavily abused and modified in many cases, keeping in mind that parts break on ALL vehicles of this age all the time. Voluntary recall, Toyota replaces all steering bars in this range. We all had dozens of good laughs at the dealership....brand new steering bars in 500,000km trucks held together with haywire and prayers LOL.
Ball Joint Recall: Various ranges of Tundras, Tacomas and Sequioas. Some balljoints subject to premature wear, so Toyota replaces all suspect balljoints with updated parts. The key to this one is....even "premature wearing" Toyota balljoints last longer than most other 4x4 manufacturer's balljoints! If Ford 4x4 owners had a front end that lasted as long as the ones Toyota's recalling....they'd be extatic!
Not say these 2 issues don't exist, just noting that if many of Toyota's recalled "problems" were applied to other brands, their severity (ie lack thereof) would certainly never make the news. It's all in the context, and with Toyota's steamroller sucess, many American media outlets are eager to take a poke wherever possible.
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Northof49
New member
That's the thing....all of us are hoping to buy perfect vehicles, from whichever manufacturer we choose. Unfortunately, none of them roll a perfect one off the line 100% of the time, so we're left with buying based on probability/odds. You're odds are as good with Toyota/Lexus as anything else at this time, and that's really all you can look at.Pirate VI said:
To my knowledge, Toyota has never had a recall, as mandated by the government. They rather have internal "Campaigns" to fix safety (and customer satisfaction) issues. Some of these issues would eventually wind up as mandated recalls anyway, however, just as many would never see the light of day under any other manufacturer's rule......
To this day, Dodge still denies that their Caravans ever had/have catastrophic automatic transmission problems. Windstar's "never" had transmission or 3.8L headgasket problems. F-series trucks "don't" wear out front ends and brakes at amazing rates. Anyone even 1/2 familiar with cars knows that failure rates on these examples approach the 100% point....yet they don't exist.
Not all manufacturers are examined with the same microscope....
toybox
New member
Northof49 said:
Sorry, but that is complete bull. I had a Sienna and the engine went at 48k due to sludge. As with all my vehicles I maintained it according to the owners manual or better. So tell me how my engine went when I had done the proper maintainance. And if Toyota was "not guilty" why did they give me a new engine with barely a question asked. Look how hard it is to get anything out of Toyota like with the 4Runner clunk issue, why would they replace the whole engine that easily, because TOYOTA screwed up that engine, not me! BTW the tranny went in that Sienna at 22k, was that due to improper maitainance, I don't think so.
It is one thing to hold Toyota in high regard, it is another to think they are beyond reproach.
Where do you get your "in every case" data from? And mechanics on the net???? That is ridiculous! Do they represent a sampling of all mechanics? Do you believe everything you read on the net? As I've said in another thread, these guys aren't rocket scientist and I don't hold their OPINIONS higher than my own.
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Northof49
New member
By your own definition I guess I shouldn't believe you....I have hung around Toyota dealerships and owners my entire life, I have read a LOT of information on this subject from various sources, and I have seen the results in person. Every post on here is an opinion, mine included.toybox said:
How do you explain the millions of engines identical to yours that have no sludge problems? Everyone is always innocent.....
Toyota is not without problems, I never said that. Look at the 3.0L headgaskets in the 88-95 PU's and 4R's....big campaign. The difference, as I see it, is that other manufacturers had similar HG problems in those years....Toyota fixed it (or tried) and many others did not.
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toybox
New member
Northof49 said:
Well, true, you don't have to believe me. But I have nothing to gain or lose and I have owned almost exclusively Toyota's in my 23 years of driving and still own (another Sienna is the second) two but again Toyota is not beyond reproach or mistakes.
With your last question and other post you seem to think Toyota could never make a mistake.
You answer my question with a question, good way to skirt the original question asked. So I'll answer it, Toyota had a problem, they new they had a problem so that is why they replaced my engine for no cost and no questions asked.
Northof49
New member
If I stick to my guns, my response is...they replaced it because it was a somewhat high-profile case in the media, and they did it to save face with owners, regardless of fault.toybox said:
My question is still valid and not particularily easy to answer, as neither you nor me have a response....
Sludge aside, my whole point with the other post was that different manufacturers respond to problems in different ways, and I provided valid examples of this. I don't think Toyota is perfect, and included a paragraph with the word "probability" in an attempt to express my views.....guess it didn't work, but I tried.
Northof49
New member
In the case of sludge, I obviously place the onus on the owners....that's why we're having this arguement LOLtoybox said:
I forget the number of sludge cases, but it was a very small percentage of the total number of those engines in service. Under 1000 units, for some reason 600ish sticks in my head. Either way it was right around 1%. Keeping in mind that any engine can be subject to sludge under the right (wrong) conditions/maintenence/oil/etc, I simply don't believe this type of problem is the engine's fault...the courts agreed with this.
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toybox
New member
I'll end this by saying that I am a bit touchy when it is implied that I did something to my vehicle to make the engine go when I know that I do more maintainance work on my vehicles than the vast majority of vehicle owners. Whatever the cause, it wasn't because of me.
I do like that Toyota handled it the way they did or I would not have bought another Sienna and another 4Runner. I can live with issues and problems as long as they are taken care of with respect and honesty, which Toyota did in my case.
I do like that Toyota handled it the way they did or I would not have bought another Sienna and another 4Runner. I can live with issues and problems as long as they are taken care of with respect and honesty, which Toyota did in my case.
peter78
Super Moderator
I have to disagree with you on this one. Toyota first said it was the owners problems. If you got the oil change from somewhere else or heaven forbid you did the oil changed yourself they would not cover the problem. Later, much later they agreed they had problems with thousands of car, both the 3.0 V6 and the 2.4 I4. They finally agreed to cover cars that changed oil at other places and owners that did it themselves if they had reciepts.Northof49 said:
Then after that they gave all the owners from these cars a 8 year warranty on sludge. I would say Toyota finally stepped up to the plate and did the right thing.
Also, a mechanic friend of mine said he had quite a few Siennas that had problems with the engines, sludge. These cars were repaired by him and Toyota did not get involved, most probably because they were past the warranty.
So, I would say the sludge was a real issue, real enough for Toyota agreed to spend millions on the problem.
