Is the dealer feeding me a line regarding water pumps?

TeryT

TeryT

New member
I was talking to a service writer about changing the water pump when the timing belt is changed at 90k miles. I always assume you do this. He said that it's not necessarily true anymore, and they would check to see if anything was weeping or loose. He said they inform the customer & let them make the decision.

He said newer Toyota water pumps use different seals, etc., that are superior to ones from a few years ago. He also said the red Toyota coolant does a better lubricating job.

Now at first it seemed like this was a real stand-up act & he was trying to save me money. But after I got to thinking about it, I wondered - if the pump isn't changed with the timing belt, it could wind up being several hundred dollars more if it failed later. Perhaps this is just a way to put it back on the consumer by saying it was their decision - and the dealer pockets about $400 more.

So could what he be saying have any merit? Could these new Toyota water pumps really make it to the next timing belt change at 180k miles?
 
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Since the timing belt drives the water pump it is just good insurance to replace the water pump when performing the timing belt replacement. You already are paying for the labor of the timing belt and the cost of a water pump is negligible. The water pump may pass a visual inspection and inspection of the bearing but a 1000 miles later you could have a leaky pump or worse one that siezes and snaps your timing belt and then you are repeating the repair over again plus a new water pump. I do not think the service advisor was trying to be deceiptful perhaps overly optimistic of Toyota Quality.

I have seen a water pump go 200,000 miles but because the labor involved in replacing the water pump in the 4Runner involves removing the timing belt why chance it.

Another important thing to make sure gets replaced with your timing belt is the tensioners and idler pulleys. Sometimes service departments at the dealer will send out coupons advertising for an inexpensive timing belt change the excludes the tensioners and idler pully's. Not replacing these components can have the same consequences as not changing the water pump.

While you are at it you might as well have them inspect the oil seals which with these you would probably need to replace by 180,000 miles maybe not
 
This is what I came up with investigating it last year.
Labor is around 5.5 hours at the dealership, but I would think that it would take at a minimum of a full day for a DYI with common tools and a couple trips to the store for tools that you need. It involves removing a butt-load of stuff.

Therefore depending on what you replace and estimating $ 89/hour for labor at a dealer, that would be $ 490+$ parts. This means something over $ 1,000 USD.

The prices for parts below are what I found at Partznet. I feel that the water pump should come from the dealer but not necessarily anything else. I buy most of my parts from Napa for my vehicles. I stay away from autozone, pepboys, advance, etc.

Parts:
Timing belt $ 53
Timing belt tensioner $ 60
Timing belt idler#1 $ 61
Timing betl idler#2 $ 61
Timing cover seal $ 4
Water pump $ 100
Coolant $ 15
Subtotal $ 400 (if you do it yourself minus any pullers or special tools needed)

Note: I have timing belts before but on a Toy v8 engine.

I would have the water pump replaced at this point even though I am confident that it can go much longer. Not sure if I could sleep well leaving it in there for an additional 90,000 miles.
 
You should go give your service writer a big hug for not trying to rip you off.

He is 100% correct in his statement that you no longer have to automatically replace the water pump with a timing belt job. People who own late model Toyotas that insist on a water pump replacement are usually misinformed.

Here is the reason:

Older vehicles with a factory fill of traditional (usually green) coolant normally have the water pump replaced with the timing belt because the life of the water pump was typically not much more than the recommended interval for changing the timing belt. It made sense to buy a new water pump and replace it at the same time to save on labor costs.

Did you ever stop to think about the reason that the water pump had such a short life? The answer is simple---older coolant had silicates added to protect the metals (iron, aluminum, copper, lead) present in the cooling system. Many people refer to these silicates as "sacrificial silicates" because they sacrificed themselves to save the cooling system components.

Unfortunately, these silicates have one big disadvantage---they are not friendly to water pump seals. Improving the seal design helped extend the life of modern water pumps, but the silicates still managed to do a number on them after a while.

The new Toyota red coolant does not contain silicates. Instead, it uses organic phosphate technology to protect metals without wearing out the water pump seals. There is really no reason to automatically change your water pump just because you are changing your timing belt anymore.

Now go give your service advisor that hug! LOL
 
That is very interesting info steven. I have been contemplating this for awhile now. I am at 70,000 miles and I must make a decision on this and also if I want to tackle the job myself. I have been waiting for someone here to perform the timing belt replacement so that I can learn from them. If no one posts any info on a DIY replacement then I may register with tundrasolutions. For a fee one can access their instructional data bases on repairs which include the timing belt replacement for the v8 engine. I figure if I save money by doing it myself then spending money on a water pump is nothing (just over $ 100 bucks) and I
 
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Well, since you have an '03, you probably should change out your water pump. If I am not mistaken, the 4Runner first had the red coolant in the '04 models, so the water pump seals should not be an issue on 4Runners '04 and newer.

Keep in mind also that the water pump itself does not normally go bad. I would bet that 99.9% of the time, the seals fail and the water pump starts leaking. The water pump bearings, shafts, and impellers may easily last the life of the vehicle---it is just the damn seals that were always a problem! Now with the red coolant, there are really no worries!
 
Even Steven said:
Well, since you have an '03, you probably should change out your water pump. If I am not mistaken, the 4Runner first had the red coolant in the '04 models, so the water pump seals should not be an issue on 4Runners '04 and newer.

Keep in mind also that the water pump itself does not normally go bad. I would bet that 99.9% of the time, the seals fail and the water pump starts leaking. The water pump bearings, shafts, and impellers may easily last the life of the vehicle---it is just the damn seals that were always a problem! Now with the red coolant, there are really no worries!
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My 03 came with the red Kool-aid.
 
TeryT said:
My 03 came with the red Kool-aid.
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Okay, my mistake. I guess all the 4th gen 4Runners have the red coolant! That's good to know.
 
Is this the Red stuff you are talking about? I have drained and replaced my radiator four times with this stuff. Twice at 30,000 miles and twice at 60,000 miles.
 

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greasefingers said:
Is this the Red stuff you are talking about? I have drained and replaced my radiator four times with this stuff. Twice at 30,000 miles and twice at 60,000 miles.
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Yes, that's the stuff. Toyota recommends leaving it in there for 100,000 miles! You don't need to change it every 30,000 miles!
 
I am almost certain that the Factory Red Long Life is recommended to change at 30,000 miles like all typical coolant. I do believe there is yet another Toy factory coolant that is used is newer 4th gen runners? For some reason a Pink fluid rings a bell in my head but I could be wrong.
 
greasefingers said:
I am almost certain that the Factory Red Long Life is recommended to change at 30,000 miles like all typical coolant. I do believe there is yet another Toy factory coolant that is used is newer 4th gen runners? For some reason a Pink fluid rings a bell in my head but I could be wrong.
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It's the pink stuff that is supposed to last 100,000 miles. The red stuff is good for 30,000 IIRC.

What's odd is that mine -- an early-production V6 -- came with the pink stuff in it. We realized it when we started to change it at 30,000 miles.
 
jharris2 said:
It's the pink stuff that is supposed to last 100,000 miles. The red stuff is good for 30,000 IIRC.

What's odd is that mine -- an early-production V6 -- came with the pink stuff in it. We realized it when we started to change it at 30,000 miles.
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Are you sure? I thought the pink stuff was the red stuff with 50% distilled water added to it already? In other words, you don't have to add your own water to the pink coolant because it is already mixed with water.
 
I just looked in my 2003 Passport to Performance book, it is the scheduled maintenance guide that comes with the vehicle; and it states that coolant should be replaced at 30,000 miles intervals. Mine was filled with Factory Red Long Life from the factory.

I buy a gallon of the Factory Red Long Life and then cut it with distilled water from the grocery store. Once I do this I write 50/50 on the gallon so that I do not get confused in the future. The pn# is 00272-1LLAC-01
The price is $19.29/gallon
 
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Okay, so I just went down to the garage and popped the hood on my 4Runner. There is a little white sticker on the top of my fan shroud (next to the coolant bottle) that says my 4Runner was filed with Toyota's Super Long Life coolant, and that it should not be changed for 100,000 miles.

My 4Runner is an '04, so maybe that's why I was thinking the '03 models had the regular coolant in them as a factory fill.
 
This is enlightening, as I didn'y know there was a pink & red. In any case, neither has the silicates - right? Therefore the pumps should last longer.
 
TeryT said:
This is enlightening, as I didn'y know there was a pink & red. In any case, neighter has the silicates - right? Therefore the pumps should last longer.
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Exactly. Silicates = water pump seal killers. It seems to me that 4th gen 4Runners owners don't even have to worry about it!
 
So the difference is Long Life (which is standard life) and Super Long Life which is actually longer than standard coolant.

And yes I just read the back of the gallon of Long Life factory Red and it states that it does not have silicates in it.
 
Timing belt?

To my knowledge '03 and up engines use a timing chain and a serpentine belt to drive water pump, alternator, power steering etc. A properly tensioned serpentine belt should not wear the water pump shaft bearing. Inspect the belt for cracks and looseness. Replacing this belt is an easy job.
 
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