06-27-2019, 01:32 PM
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#166
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jidaran
Same. IIRC, the ABS issues in that poll were solely relegated to those who had gone up to 231mm. No one had problems at 199mm.
Edit: Here's the link.
5 / 39 users had issues with ABS on the 231mm
0 / 13 users had issues with ABS on the 199mm
4 other people voted for "13WL/13WE Disabled ABS system and recommend this" (bringing the total number of participants to 56) but I think we can exclude them for our purposes, since there's no way of knowing whether they would have run into any ABS problems if it was enabled.
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I didn't do the 231mm TBU and did the 199mm instead because of the ABS and soft pedal issue people spoke about. I couldn't be happier with the 199mm TBU... No ABS issues, no soft pedal and my 4Runner brakes better than ever with no fade. IMO the two TBU upgrades are very different and should therefore be treated as such.
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1998 Toyota 4Runner 3.4 4x4 with 340,000 miles.
199mm TBU-Bilstein 4600-'99 Tall Springs(Rear).Almost Totally Stock
1997 Toyota 4Runner 3.4 4x4 with 247k miles-Project car
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06-27-2019, 01:49 PM
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#167
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absalom
Great feedback guys. I should perhaps explain that these "builds" are NOT aimed at the hardcore builder. Instead, these are aimed at the new or even seasoned owner who just doesn't want to spend a ton of time researching the various configurations and nuances associated with those modifications.
These builds are to make the average owner feel confident about the direction they want to take with their trucks. Now, they'll still end up with an amazing platform that they can adjust down the road as their needs and desires change.
Also, I placed a large emphasis on safety. There's no denying that lower CoG is safer, and that smaller tires react quicker. Many of these builders might have less experience off-road, and these builds take that into account. They aren't tame builds by any stretch of the definition, but instead just emphasize balance.
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I get that, no criticism on the build itself. I also get that a relatively stock build shouldn't need a TBU unless you drive mountain roads or tow or other out of the ordinary use (as noted in
@ Jidaran
's post below). Just wondering why you no longer believe in it at all. While I have had no issues with my 231s I get that others have. But the 199s don't have that bad rap and would be an upgrade compared to stock so it still has merit even to the mild builder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jidaran
Oh yeah, I was agreeing with you, just adding some numbers for the sake of clarity.
I've never done the TBU, but after a A LOT of reading it seems that (like absalom said) the stock brakes are fine as long as the rest of your truck is close to stock (with maybe some exceptions for those who drive steep mountain roads daily or pull heavy trailers). That said, it seems like all the ABS trouble associated with the upgrade are isolated to those who go for the 231mm calipers.
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Same page then. Like I said above I haven't had any issues with my 231s and the ABS system so thats my bias out there.
Regardless I don't think we (as a forum) should be advocating against something that could be beneficial to many. We can exclude 231s from that to be conservative but to advise against it altogether without some sort of evidence is a disservice on a thread meant in part to educate new users. Even the stuff that came from Sonoran didn't advocate against the 199s. None of us (that i know of) work for the NHTSA but people will look at this thread for guidance.
EDIT: I suppose I should say its your thread and your opinion on builds. I'm not here to change your mind if you think the TBU is dangerous or not worth it etc. I just disagree with the blanket statement that TBU = ABS issues
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2000 4Runner:Kings, 37s, lockers 2018 TRD OR:stock and staying that way
Last edited by TCMach; 06-27-2019 at 02:00 PM.
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06-27-2019, 02:15 PM
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#168
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMach
I get that, no criticism on the build itself. I also get that a relatively stock build shouldn't need a TBU unless you drive mountain roads or tow or other out of the ordinary use (as noted in
@ Jidaran
's post below). Just wondering why you no longer believe in it at all. While I have had no issues with my 231s I get that others have. But the 199s don't have that bad rap and would be an upgrade compared to stock so it still has merit even to the mild builder.
Same page then. Like I said above I haven't had any issues with my 231s and the ABS system so thats my bias out there.
Regardless I don't think we (as a forum) should be advocating against something that could be beneficial to many. We can exclude 231s from that to be conservative but to advise against it altogether without some sort of evidence is a disservice on a thread meant in part to educate new users. Even the stuff that came from Sonoran didn't advocate against the 199s. None of us (that i know of) work for the NHTSA but people will look at this thread for guidance.
EDIT: I suppose I should say its your thread and your opinion on builds. I'm not here to change your mind if you think the TBU is dangerous or not worth it etc. I just disagree with the blanket statement that TBU = ABS issues
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I should have clarified when I said TBUs that I mean the 231s specifically.
However, while the TBU in general might generate more braking force, or dissipate more heat faster, I don’t want new users or anyone to be under the impression that the stock brakes are bad. When I was diagnosing an unrelated ABS issue awhile back, I had pulled the ABS fuse and was easily able to lock up the fronts with fresh hardware.
That goes for mountain roads as well. Living in Colorado, there are no shortage of extreme grades to test brakes on. Whether I’m going over Loveland Pass, coming east bound on I-70 into Denver, or doing technical braking on demanding trails, I’ve never wanted for more braking force.
On the flip side, my TBU upgrade was fraught with issues. First of all, it wasn’t cheap. The pedal was squishy for months, and while I was eventually able to get it somewhat firm, it never inspired the confidence that my stock brakes did. I see many others having similar issues. So, I put myself in the position of an average builder, is chasing down the cause for a squishy and potentially dangerous pedal something I really want to tackle? Nope.
So it costs quite a bit (relative), it can introduce a myriad of issues (potentially), and it changes an already stout setup (my opinion). I don’t know about you, but I have bigger fish to fry when it comes to building my truck
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06-27-2019, 03:03 PM
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#169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absalom
I should have clarified when I said TBUs that I mean the 231s specifically.
However, while the TBU in general might generate more braking force, or dissipate more heat faster, I don’t want new users or anyone to be under the impression that the stock brakes are bad. When I was diagnosing an unrelated ABS issue awhile back, I had pulled the ABS fuse and was easily able to lock up the fronts with fresh hardware.
That goes for mountain roads as well. Living in Colorado, there are no shortage of extreme grades to test brakes on. Whether I’m going over Loveland Pass, coming east bound on I-70 into Denver, or doing technical braking on demanding trails, I’ve never wanted for more braking force.
On the flip side, my TBU upgrade was fraught with issues. First of all, it wasn’t cheap. The pedal was squishy for months, and while I was eventually able to get it somewhat firm, it never inspired the confidence that my stock brakes did. I see many others having similar issues. So, I put myself in the position of an average builder, is chasing down the cause for a squishy and potentially dangerous pedal something I really want to tackle? Nope.
So it costs quite a bit (relative), it can introduce a myriad of issues (potentially), and it changes an already stout setup (my opinion). I don’t know about you, but I have bigger fish to fry when it comes to building my truck
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This reminds me of hiring new employees and you try to explain to the job to them in the most black and white terms possible when in reality its there is a lot of gray. Then you have to decide how much info to give them when they are new and as they progress.
In my experience with my own vehicle the stock brakes were not acceptable even with new pads & rotors and rebuilt rear brakes with armor being the key player. On a scale my truck weighed almost 4800 compared to the stock 3885 (2000 SR5) so almost 1000 pounds over the original curb weight. Now you aren't recommending bumpers so take a bit off but add in people and any sort of gear and you're over the original GVW. Looking at some form of brake upgrade isn't out of reason at that point IMO.
My current commute involves part of cottonwood pass (the Gypsum one) and highway 82 up to independence pass. Mountain roads by all accounts and I am grateful for the extra braking power. But maybe I care more than others because it is my every day life and I do over 2000' elevation each way (its not downhill both ways lol).
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2000 4Runner:Kings, 37s, lockers 2018 TRD OR:stock and staying that way
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06-27-2019, 03:13 PM
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#170
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just my 2 cents... I am under the impression that most people do the 231 TBU with out changing out their brake lines (usually 20+ yrs old and expand upon pressure). Switching to a SS braided line in conjunction with 231 TBU resolves all soft pedal issues...
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1998 SR5 5 spd 4x4 3.4L + some other stuff
1985 Tercel 4WD SR5 6spd, 4A swap
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https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...ce-thread.html
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06-27-2019, 03:23 PM
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#171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norcalassassin
just my 2 cents... I am under the impression that most people do the 231 TBU with out changing out their brake lines (usually 20+ yrs old and expand upon pressure). Switching to a SS braided line in conjunction with 231 TBU resolves all soft pedal issues...
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If you are referring to just the rubber lines & not the entire hard line system atleast in my case this is not true. I have wheelers SS lines and the 231 and the pedal is still softer than the stock brakes. It may be a factor as my pedal isn't as soft as others have reported but it still isn't as firm as the stock system.
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2000 4Runner:Kings, 37s, lockers 2018 TRD OR:stock and staying that way
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06-27-2019, 04:21 PM
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#172
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Join Date: Sep 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TCMach
If you are referring to just the rubber lines & not the entire hard line system atleast in my case this is not true. I have wheelers SS lines and the 231 and the pedal is still softer than the stock brakes. It may be a factor as my pedal isn't as soft as others have reported but it still isn't as firm as the stock system.
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Having installed 231s somewhat recently, I have on my to-do list, to bleed the brake system, again. I too went with ss flex lines front and rear (3 in total). I'm now starting to realize that maybe that won't make a difference...
I'll be pulling a small utility trailer at times, so that was my rationale for the TBU, but I didn't now about these 231 ABS issues, otherwise I would have likely gone with the 199s.
Our friend JZiggy shares some good knowledge in this post:
https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2709776-post90.html
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2000 Limited, E-locker
Maintenance/Build Thread
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06-27-2019, 05:00 PM
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#173
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Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Hot Springs, AR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absalom
The Maverick - Brand New!!
*New 99 Tall Coils front (Moogs are perfectly acceptable here)
*New OME 906 rear springs
*New Bilstein 6112's up front
*New Bilstein 5160's out back
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@ absalom
To my knowledge stock springs will not work with Bilstein 6112's due to larger shock diameter. They also come with springs. Tundra 6112's come with 650lb springs and 3rd gen 4Runner 6112's come with 600lb springs. If you wish to source a different spring rate the springs are 14"x3" for 4Runner and 16"x3" for Tundra. I appreciate reading through your original suggestions and have referenced it a few times being new to 4Runner ownership as well as recommended it to others asking the same questions I had. New suggestions are appreciated as well.
Last edited by Bad Luck; 06-27-2019 at 05:27 PM.
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06-27-2019, 05:04 PM
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#174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB66
Having installed 231s somewhat recently, I have on my to-do list, to bleed the brake system, again. I too went with ss flex lines front and rear (3 in total). I'm now starting to realize that maybe that won't make a difference...
I'll be pulling a small utility trailer at times, so that was my rationale for the TBU, but I didn't now about these 231 ABS issues, otherwise I would have likely gone with the 199s.
Our friend JZiggy shares some good knowledge in this post:
https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2709776-post90.html
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JZiggy's post doesn't really apply to you or I. We both have limited 4Runner's which means we have the larger rear wheel cylinders he is referencing.
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06-27-2019, 06:42 PM
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#175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB66
Having installed 231s somewhat recently, I have on my to-do list, to bleed the brake system, again. I too went with ss flex lines front and rear (3 in total). I'm now starting to realize that maybe that won't make a difference...
I'll be pulling a small utility trailer at times, so that was my rationale for the TBU, but I didn't now about these 231 ABS issues, otherwise I would have likely gone with the 199s.
Our friend JZiggy shares some good knowledge in this post:
https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2709776-post90.html
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FWIW I and the other couple trucks I've put TBUs on have had zero issues with ABS. Your mileage my vary, see previously mentioned threads lol
This is almost looking like it needs to be a new thread if we want to keep going. I have a couple threads that are interesting me (since I'm already running 17s)
Brake Dimensions and Specifications - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
4th Gen Sport brakes on 3rd Gen??
Theres also many threads on alternate master cylinders. Which could completely change the hydraulic leverage referenced by JZiggy. Alternate boosters, chevy parts... could go on and on.
Master Cylinder upgrade options
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Last edited by TCMach; 06-27-2019 at 06:44 PM.
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06-28-2019, 02:56 PM
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#176
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Join Date: Oct 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyB66
Having installed 231s somewhat recently, I have on my to-do list, to bleed the brake system, again. I too went with ss flex lines front and rear (3 in total). I'm now starting to realize that maybe that won't make a difference...
I'll be pulling a small utility trailer at times, so that was my rationale for the TBU, but I didn't now about these 231 ABS issues, otherwise I would have likely gone with the 199s.
Our friend JZiggy shares some good knowledge in this post:
https://www.toyota-4runner.org/2709776-post90.html
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Thanks for the mention, Tony. Glad to see my OCD detail capturing is interesting to someone
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08-14-2019, 04:04 PM
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#178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beklemmung
(@absalom - thanks for putting this together, it's a big help for people like me. I do have one suggestion: edit your initial post to include the two most recent builds that you added.)
I'm putting together a shopping list for a refresh that's in the neighborhood of the DD/WW Pavement Bias and Jack of All Trades lists. I have some questions and would really appreciate feedback/clarification:
1. My first question is about "new sway bar links front and rear."
1a. THIS is the OEM rear sway bar link and only 1 is needed, correct? Are there good aftermarket options or best to stick with OEM?
1b. Is a "front sway bar link" the same thing as an outer tie rod? If so then it should be part #4 HERE, but if it's something else, please let me know the part number, and again, if there's a better aftermarket option than OEM.
2. Steering rack bushings. Would new OEM steering rack bushings have been included in the steering gear and linking assembly linked in 1b above? The previous owner had everything inside the box (part #1) installed by a dealership about 40k miles ago so I'll hold off on it now if this included steering rack bushings.
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I can't help with 3-5, but I'll help where I can.
1a) That is the correct part and you'll need 2.
1b) Front sway bar link is not an outer tie rod end. You'll need 2 of these: Stabilizer Link - Toyota (48820-AD010) | Toyota Parts
Alternatively: MStudT sells ungraded sway bar end links that aren't much more if any more than buying new oem links: Sway Bar Links - Eugene, OR or if your links are fine and the bushings are worn you can replace the bushings with something along the lines of this: Front Anti-Sway Kit 1996-2002 4Runner (4RUNSWYKIT) and https://wheelersoffroad.com/i-254901...tegory:1346188
2)OEM steering rack bushings do not come with #1 in that parts diagram. Only the stuff inside the box for #1 comes with it. You can try these bushings if you don't mind poly: https://wheelersoffroad.com/i-254897...tegory:1338001
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08-14-2019, 05:09 PM
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#179
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@ Bad Luck
, thanks for the reply, appreciate it. I don't know if my sway bar/stabilizer links are fine, but the truck has had a fairly easy life. I'll have someone more knowledgeable than I am take a look before I make a decision, hopefully I can just do the bearings.
For the steering rack bushings, poly is generally considered to be superior to rubber/OEM, correct? Do you know why I'm seeing slightly different part numbers than the Wheeler's item you linked? ES 8.10103 and Whiteline W129780 (these look like the same thing to me, though the Whiteline is nearly 2x the price).
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08-14-2019, 05:37 PM
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#180
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Poly will be stiffer, but less resistant to oil compared to OEM bushings. If your valve covers leak (pretty common) then you'll get oil from that on your steering rack bushings eventually. The Energy Suspension ones you linked look identical to the one's Wheeler's is selling. I'm not sure if the Whiteline bushings include the metal sleeves or not. Just something to consider.
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