08-16-2015, 10:12 PM
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#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBallEngineer
My thought process is this, the low side pressure(which equates to temp) can never be lower than is allowed by the system. Most run a low side of nominally 30PSI I think, I'm a little rusty on AC systems. Not sure how cool you can get the evaporator before it freezes, I'm not that knowledgeable on refrigeration. When a system gets bigger, it gets bigger in airflow, volume of refrigerant and condensing ability. I see how the water cooling would get that high side down a little quicker, so the delta "curve" is brought down after the expansion valve. That makes sense to me, I just don't know, or understand, how that would equate to actual in cabin benefit of any significance.
This is one area I can easily admit not knowing enough about to offer alternatives or truly say, yay, or nay.
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No, the low side pressure varies with the Delta-T just as the exit temp does.
Adding the pressures to my example above:
70% Humidity:
Ambient Temp: 90°F, Exit Temp : 67°F, Low Side Pressure 61 psi, High Side: 260 psi
Ambient Temp: 80°F, Exit Temp. 56°, Low Side Pressure 42 psi, High Side: 215 psi.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/attach...temp-chart.jpg
It's basic conservation of energy. You make it easier for the system to throw heat off the front, the more heat it can suck off the inside. The phase change from the evaporation eats up a pantload of heat from the front of the system.
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'99 4Runner SR5 5spd 3.4L V6 4WD(U.S), original '99 Talls in front, OME 906s in back, Hella fogs, Trekmaster shocks in front, Billy in back, no running boards, FIAMM horns, Alpine sound, Michelin LTX M/S2's, owned since new.
'97 HiLux SW4 5spd 4WD(Japan model bought in Brazil assembled in Argentina, very close to a 3.0 4Runner/Surf)
'71 FordWillys Jeep CJ5 (with straight six Ford Maverick 3.0 liter engine--lives in the mountains north of Sao Paulo Brazil)
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Last edited by TheDurk; 08-16-2015 at 10:21 PM.
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08-16-2015, 10:44 PM
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#17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brique
Another thought: you could make the ac's job easier by getting the sun off it some. A sheet of thin plastic or vinyl mounted to a full size roof rack would keep direct sunlight off the roof of your truck.
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Put a layer of this between the head liner and roof. Big difference. Reflectix, 24 in. x 100 ft. Double Reflective Insulation, BP24100 at The Home Depot - Mobile
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08-16-2015, 10:45 PM
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#18
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I agree with "TheDurk". If we can cool down the condenser, the refrigerant can absorb more heat from the cabin and release it at the condenser, making the cooling process faster.
One gram of water takes 1 calorie (4.184 Joules) to raise its temperature by one degree Celsius. So to bring it to the evaporating temperature (100 Celsius), it will absorb quite a lot of heat from the condenser. This makes the condenser to rid more heat from the refrigerant before it exists from the condenser.
Yes, I will need to use DI water for this purpose and this system will only be used at the initial cooling.
I thought about having some kind of sheet above the roof rack to block the sun rays but then it will cause a heavy drag due to a narrow space to escape air diverted by the windshield.
Last edited by nissanh; 08-16-2015 at 10:52 PM.
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08-16-2015, 11:01 PM
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#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nissanh
I agree with "TheDurk". If we can cool down the condenser, the refrigerant can absorb more heat from the cabin and release it at the condenser, making the cooling process faster.
One gram of water takes 1 calorie (4.184 Joules) to raise its temperature by one degree Celsius. So to bring it to the evaporating temperature (100 Celsius), it will absorb quite a lot of heat from the condenser. This makes the condenser to rid more heat from the refrigerant before it exists from the condenser.
Yes, I will need to use DI water for this purpose and this system will only be used at the initial cooling.
I thought about having some kind of sheet above the roof rack to block the sun rays but then it will cause a heavy drag due to a narrow space to escape air diverted by the windshield.
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Basically, you are tacking a swamp cooler, aka evaporative cooler, on to the front of the A/C system to boost its performance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaporative_cooler
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'99 4Runner SR5 5spd 3.4L V6 4WD(U.S), original '99 Talls in front, OME 906s in back, Hella fogs, Trekmaster shocks in front, Billy in back, no running boards, FIAMM horns, Alpine sound, Michelin LTX M/S2's, owned since new.
'97 HiLux SW4 5spd 4WD(Japan model bought in Brazil assembled in Argentina, very close to a 3.0 4Runner/Surf)
'71 FordWillys Jeep CJ5 (with straight six Ford Maverick 3.0 liter engine--lives in the mountains north of Sao Paulo Brazil)
My Backyard Frame Swap
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08-16-2015, 11:16 PM
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#20
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Why water? I mean, if we're goin balls out here, why not use liquid nitrogen?
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08-16-2015, 11:21 PM
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#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bump N Run
I put a reflective sunshade when mine sits in the sun. Tinted windows help some too. Just thought I would add something dumb to this thread.
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I got all these covered! Thanks!
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08-16-2015, 11:21 PM
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#22
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Anyone ever thought about a bigger blower fan or a bigger motor.
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08-16-2015, 11:24 PM
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#23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brique
Why water? I mean, if we're goin balls out here, why not use liquid nitrogen?
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I even have access to liquid Helium!
Cashmoney, I think a bigger blower fan will be a good idea. Problem is the room.
Last edited by nissanh; 08-16-2015 at 11:26 PM.
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08-16-2015, 11:29 PM
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#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brique
Why water? I mean, if we're goin balls out here, why not use liquid nitrogen?
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...because...
Quote:
Most [evaporative cooler] designs take advantage of the fact that water has one of the highest known enthalpy of vaporization (latent heat of vaporization) values of any common substance
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In kJ/kg
Water 2260
Nitrogen 200
R-134a 215.9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latent...f_latent_heats
You had to ask....
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'99 4Runner SR5 5spd 3.4L V6 4WD(U.S), original '99 Talls in front, OME 906s in back, Hella fogs, Trekmaster shocks in front, Billy in back, no running boards, FIAMM horns, Alpine sound, Michelin LTX M/S2's, owned since new.
'97 HiLux SW4 5spd 4WD(Japan model bought in Brazil assembled in Argentina, very close to a 3.0 4Runner/Surf)
'71 FordWillys Jeep CJ5 (with straight six Ford Maverick 3.0 liter engine--lives in the mountains north of Sao Paulo Brazil)
My Backyard Frame Swap
Last edited by TheDurk; 08-16-2015 at 11:36 PM.
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08-16-2015, 11:49 PM
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#25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDurk
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OK, so from what I've read in the last few minutes of googling. It seems the BIGGEST benefit is the efficiency of the compressor when water cooled. I doubt we would see any real world fuel mileage increases unless you live in Phoenix and run the a/c 24/7. I'd love to see a real world test to see if the cooling can lower the in cabin temp significantly quicker with the water cooling on the condenser. All in all, this is one of the best threads I've encountered here, I am humbled in Y'allz presence.
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1989 FJ62 5.3 Chevy, FZJ80 Axles, 4.88's with ARB.
2000 2wd runner, 4 cylinders, yes it IS slow.
1999 4WD SR5 Desert Dune 3.4 351K and counting.
2000 4WD sport 3.4 Elocker <--My son's but I still end up paying.
2001 2WD SR5 3.4 <-- My daughter's...see preceding line.
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08-17-2015, 12:56 AM
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#26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IBallEngineer
OK, so from what I've read in the last few minutes of googling. It seems the BIGGEST benefit is the efficiency of the compressor when water cooled. I doubt we would see any real world fuel mileage increases unless you live in Phoenix and run the a/c 24/7. I'd love to see a real world test to see if the cooling can lower the in cabin temp significantly quicker with the water cooling on the condenser. All in all, this is one of the best threads I've encountered here, I am humbled in Y'allz presence.
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Who said it would help mpg? I missed that. I agree that's a stretch. Maybe, if the period of continuous running on initial start-up was shorter, there is some economy, but as it only happens once per trip, it's de minimus, if it exists at all.
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'99 4Runner SR5 5spd 3.4L V6 4WD(U.S), original '99 Talls in front, OME 906s in back, Hella fogs, Trekmaster shocks in front, Billy in back, no running boards, FIAMM horns, Alpine sound, Michelin LTX M/S2's, owned since new.
'97 HiLux SW4 5spd 4WD(Japan model bought in Brazil assembled in Argentina, very close to a 3.0 4Runner/Surf)
'71 FordWillys Jeep CJ5 (with straight six Ford Maverick 3.0 liter engine--lives in the mountains north of Sao Paulo Brazil)
My Backyard Frame Swap
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08-17-2015, 02:07 AM
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#27
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I'm in AZ and as everyone knows the summers can be brutal. I've been thinking abut ways to assist the AC in order to make it more efficient, so I'm glad you posted this.
I think an efficient dedicated fan for thr condenser would really help. Maybe you could setup a mister that sprays only when you are at idle or in park. And I'd probably say go with a finer mist so you can cover more area while using less water.
I really like the idea of insulation under the headliner. I probably need to do that.
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08-17-2015, 09:08 AM
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#28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDurk
Who said it would help mpg? I missed that. I agree that's a stretch. Maybe, if the period of continuous running on initial start-up was shorter, there is some economy, but as it only happens once per trip, it's de minimus, if it exists at all.
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The MPG was my own extrapolation, based on the efficiency of water cooled condensers on rooftop a/c units. That was why I figured in a constant heat like AZ, you could benefit from water cooling during more of the operation, and potentially run the compressor less and see a mpg benefit. It would be minuscule at best, but probably does exist, maybe.
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1989 FJ62 5.3 Chevy, FZJ80 Axles, 4.88's with ARB.
2000 2wd runner, 4 cylinders, yes it IS slow.
1999 4WD SR5 Desert Dune 3.4 351K and counting.
2000 4WD sport 3.4 Elocker <--My son's but I still end up paying.
2001 2WD SR5 3.4 <-- My daughter's...see preceding line.
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08-17-2015, 09:29 AM
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#29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diponyou
I'm in AZ and as everyone knows the summers can be brutal. I've been thinking abut ways to assist the AC in order to make it more efficient, so I'm glad you posted this.
I think an efficient dedicated fan for thr condenser would really help. Maybe you could setup a mister that sprays only when you are at idle or in park. And I'd probably say go with a finer mist so you can cover more area while using less water.
I really like the idea of insulation under the headliner. I probably need to do that.
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The fan would certainly help. My son's BMW e36 323i has an electric auxiliary fan mounted in front of the condenser (a 'pusher') in addition to a conventional belt-driven fluid-clutched 'puller' mechanical fan like ours behind the rad. The aux. fan only engages when coolant temps exceed a certain level, but it also engages full-time whenever the A/C is running.
It wouldn't be that hard to fit one of these on our trucks, it's about the right size and there are aftermarket suppliers at a reasonable price--if you felt the need.
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'99 4Runner SR5 5spd 3.4L V6 4WD(U.S), original '99 Talls in front, OME 906s in back, Hella fogs, Trekmaster shocks in front, Billy in back, no running boards, FIAMM horns, Alpine sound, Michelin LTX M/S2's, owned since new.
'97 HiLux SW4 5spd 4WD(Japan model bought in Brazil assembled in Argentina, very close to a 3.0 4Runner/Surf)
'71 FordWillys Jeep CJ5 (with straight six Ford Maverick 3.0 liter engine--lives in the mountains north of Sao Paulo Brazil)
My Backyard Frame Swap
Last edited by TheDurk; 08-17-2015 at 09:33 AM.
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08-17-2015, 09:39 AM
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#30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDurk
It wouldn't be that hard to fit one of these on our trucks, it's about the right size and there are aftermarket suppliers at a reasonable price--if you felt the need.
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HOLY Airplane propellers Batman!!
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1989 FJ62 5.3 Chevy, FZJ80 Axles, 4.88's with ARB.
2000 2wd runner, 4 cylinders, yes it IS slow.
1999 4WD SR5 Desert Dune 3.4 351K and counting.
2000 4WD sport 3.4 Elocker <--My son's but I still end up paying.
2001 2WD SR5 3.4 <-- My daughter's...see preceding line.
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