02-14-2019, 11:31 PM
|
#1
|
Junior Member
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
|
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
Alignment issues! Truck cannot get non positive camber.
Hi all,
Long story made short, I have had an ongoing issue with my 1999 limited tr4. I first noticed what I thought was a wheel bearing going bad but turned out to be cupped tires causing the same sort of noise. Fastforward a few shops and few months, I've got basically a brand new front end. New coilovers, new lower control arms (oem), new lower ball joints, new rack and pinion with new inner and outer tie rod ends, new sway bar end links, sway bar bushings, new upper control arms with adjustable camber and caster, new CV axles, etc. The only thing I have not replaced at this point is the spindle and knuckle.
All of this started happening when I went from the 31.5 inch tires I had to 32 inch tires (load rating E to boot). I began noticing visibly positive camber when the truck seemed to be sitting on what was otherwise level ground. All of the above things were done in pursuit of fixing the camber issues after multiple shops were unable to get it to align correctly and drive right.
I finally got a good shop (though they do not have an alignment machine but use a reputable shop near by and they always double check their work), we have replaced all of those parts, but cannot set the camber anything close to 0 without throwing the toe off.
If the image does not show, here is a link to the alignment spec sheet Imgur: The magic of the Internet
This is my latest alignment spec sheet. The truck drives decently but tracks hard to the right with the difference in caster being over a degree between left and right.
The last thing left for us to try is new spindles (we think the knuckle could be bent) otherwise the only explanation the shop can think of is a bent frame.
I'm curious if anyone else has had any experience with something like this. Additionally, will the .15 toe I currently have destroy my tires even more?
Thanks!
Last edited by ctoombs; 02-15-2019 at 12:41 AM.
Reason: Original post was a novel.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 12:18 AM
|
#2
|
|
Elite Member
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 6,023
|
|
Elite Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 6,023
|
Anyway you can sum that story up in a paragraph. I quit reading half way.
__________________
1996 Toyota 4runner Limited - 4" Lift, 33's, AOR Bumper w/winch
1990 Eagle Talon Tsi- E316G @ 32psi E85 Tuned, 272 cams, ECMlink v3.0, 405whp - Gave back to Brother
2012 Toyota Tacoma DCSB - Stock on 32's- Wifes
2004 Cadillac CTS-V - 5.7L LS6 v8, 6-speed 400hp/400tq - My new DD
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-ge...read-pics.html
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 12:41 AM
|
#3
|
Junior Member
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
|
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
Edited, to a more reader friendly version.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 01:34 AM
|
#4
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburg,CA. Bay area.
Posts: 487
|
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburg,CA. Bay area.
Posts: 487
|
Alignment readings
Here is my take on your readings and why you are having a drift or pull to the right, I didn't understand what you mean by you could no longer adjust camber without messing toe. You first adjust Camber/Caster first before you do the toe adjust, you need to even out camber reading close to zero or go half a degree negative and caster reading should be higher on the right side to compensate for road crown and keep the difference less than 1* then set toe to specs more towards positive. In your print out it doesn't show Steering angle inclination (SAI) and Inclination angle (IA) this will tell you if your spindle is bent or frame if you can get a full print out repost it here again.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 02:02 AM
|
#5
|
Junior Member
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
|
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
I've done a poor job explaining this, but I've taken the truck to a number of alignment shops, all of whom were unable to get the camber and toe set to zero simultaneously, stating that either or both were maxed out. Since replacing almost the entire front end with new parts, finding a new shop who is definitely more knowledgeable and trustworthy, I've gotten it to the current specs you see today where it definitely drives better but has a strong pull due to the caster.
The word I got from the alignment shop with this most recent readout is that they had tried to set camber as negative as possible, and this was as far as it could go and caster? Any further they were not able to set toe correctly.
Keep in mind this is not the first shop that said something similar.
The shop doing my actual work is separate from the alignment shop. This shop and I suspect its either a bent knuckle or bent frame at this point that is pushing the camber so positive that its not even able to get close to 0.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 02:48 AM
|
#6
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburg,CA. Bay area.
Posts: 487
|
|
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburg,CA. Bay area.
Posts: 487
|
New readings
Have them print out an SAI and IA readings and I will tell you if something is bent. I'm a hands on kinda person so I apologize not being able to understand the toe being maxed out or cannot be in specs. with a negative or 0*.
Take pics of your adjustment bolts front and rear to see if they have maxed out. I mean the front control arms only.
How much lift do you have? Aftermarket UCA?
YouTube
Last edited by vipergrhd; 02-15-2019 at 03:07 AM.
Reason: added video
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 10:05 AM
|
#7
|
|
Senior Member
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Jersey
Age: 56
Posts: 1,963
Real Name: John
|
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Jersey
Age: 56
Posts: 1,963
Real Name: John
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctoombs
I've done a poor job explaining this, but I've taken the truck to a number of alignment shops, all of whom were unable to get the camber and toe set to zero simultaneously, stating that either or both were maxed out. Since replacing almost the entire front end with new parts, finding a new shop who is definitely more knowledgeable and trustworthy, I've gotten it to the current specs you see today where it definitely drives better but has a strong pull due to the caster.
The word I got from the alignment shop with this most recent readout is that they had tried to set camber as negative as possible, and this was as far as it could go and caster? Any further they were not able to set toe correctly.
Keep in mind this is not the first shop that said something similar.
The shop doing my actual work is separate from the alignment shop. This shop and I suspect its either a bent knuckle or bent frame at this point that is pushing the camber so positive that its not even able to get close to 0.
|
A few strange things here looking at the readouts.
First, in the before measurements the left wheel is showing at of spec with 2.6 degrees. Factory specs are 1.5-1.7 to 3.5-3.7 degrees so that wheel should show green like the other side showing 2.2 degrees. I can barely see the specs but it looks like it's showing different specs side to side which I have never seen before with our trucks. As mentioned, you should either make caster less or camber more on the drivers side or the opposite on the passenger side to compensate for road crown (most people use caster to accomplish this) but I've never seen it speced like that before. Me thinks someone has entered some custom specs to get it it "green". Green doesn't make it right.
Secondly, if the tech were able to get that much caster on the left there should be enough to dial it back and also dial back the camber too because when you change caster you change camber. You may have a frozen cam but I would think a tech would see that and obviously since you have new OEM LCAs you should have full adjust ability, because the LCAs should have come with new OEM bushings. Me thinks the technician is doing something wrong here. Maybe they are not loosening both cams before doing the adjustments. You have to loosen both front and back to make proper adjustments.
You may find you'll need aftermarket UCAs. I have 32s (275 70 17) When I adjusted mine, when I got my camber in spec my caster ended up around 1 degree which is out of spec. Get the SPC LR UCAs and get your full range of adjust ability back and stop the shop from throwing parts at the problem and emptying your wallet.
__________________
SILVER 2000 4runner Limited TOTALED
WHITE/SILVER 1999 4runner Limited l Rear Locker l Tundra/890 coils | 5100 Bilsteins all around | Sonoran Steel Bumpstops l 199 mm Tundra brake upgrade | SCS Matte Gray Ray10 Rims | 275 70 17 BFG KO2 tires | LR UCAs | EIMKEITH panhard brackets | LED interior upgrade l Rear LED tailights l Pioneer AVH-X5700BHS Alpine Type "R" speakers NVX JAD800.4 Class D Amp Kenwood Under seat Subwoofer l Front window tint 20% l Weathertech window visors and floormats l OutGear Solutions Full Length roofrack l Morimoto 40" LED lightbar
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 12:13 PM
|
#8
|
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: York, Pa
Posts: 96
Real Name: Rich
|
|
Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: York, Pa
Posts: 96
Real Name: Rich
|
One of the many things I learned doing alignments that need to adjust the 3 is set the two that control the camber and caster to max load so the cams don't have to push the load of the vehicle on the little tabs...those can get flattened out...I've welded them to add strength in some in the past from being destroyed...maybe look at the cam bolts and make sure the tabs are not flattened...If they are ok, then each move of each cam bolt must be very small, camber, caster and toe set at the same time...I know sounds crazy but if you try to set each one individually it won't work and you just chase your tail...I've trained many on this and is very hard to get until you try each one a little at a time...you can't set toe after...It will change the camber degree...it is strange that the specs are different on everything on the printout too...I rarely go by specs anyhow because the window is to big...I set mine at 0 with the camber which is more important than caster...usually caster is at 2 or less...depending if it's stock or lifted...toe is 0 too...and I always go by tire ware as well on lifted ones to see if it needs changed ot tire pressure is high or low.
__________________
Bought this 99 in 01 and haven't let it go since! Valve dropped at 195k so I rebuilt it with reman heads, new rings and one new piston...tough to find the correct numbered one but I did...still had the original hatch...I soaped it and did a light hatch to help the new rings seat...that was in 2015...since then I did a basic lift and put some VTX 18x9 inch wheels with 0 offset...Ive grounded the rear locker, ran a diff extension into the gas cap, did the hood piston mod...GM Alternator...13WL brakes..30 year ASE Master Tech with more tools than sense, so I quit everything and work at home now.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 12:22 PM
|
#9
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 528
|
|
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 528
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRZEE2000TR4LTD
You may find you'll need aftermarket UCAs. I have 32s (275 70 17) When I adjusted mine, when I got my camber in spec my caster ended up around 1 degree which is out of spec. Get the SPC LR UCAs and get your full range of adjust ability back and stop the shop from throwing parts at the problem and emptying your wallet.
|
I'm really confused, why would bigger tires be effecting your alignment? That doesn't make any sense. If he lifted the vehicle via springs or etc. that would make a lot of sense even then there looks to be adjustment left in his vehicle.
Last edited by APhelps; 02-15-2019 at 01:53 PM.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 12:35 PM
|
#10
|
Junior Member
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
|
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
I’m equally confused. There is no lift on the vehicle yet serious alignment issues. I have adjustable control arms up top so at this point I’m not sure if the alignment shop is just garbage and really shitty at their job, could be the case, or I’ve got fear damage pushing my alignment so out of whack no shop can fix it. Thing is, I’ve only ever had tiny fender benders that barely dented the front bumper.
This is my third alignment shop that’s basically jut not able to get it to 0 camber, 0 toe, 3 degrees of caster like I asked. Obviously I’m not the tech and am just going off what I’ve been told.
At this point, I am considering taking it to a Toyota dealer, or just throwing $300 at a 4 Wheel Parts store near by for a custom alignment to get it to the right specs as I just don’t believe I’m all the way out of adjustments and cannot get to zero.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 12:40 PM
|
#11
|
Junior Member
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
|
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWRD99
One of the many things I learned doing alignments that need to adjust the 3 is set the two that control the camber and caster to max load so the cams don't have to push the load of the vehicle on the little tabs...those can get flattened out...I've welded them to add strength in some in the past from being destroyed...maybe look at the cam bolts and make sure the tabs are not flattened...If they are ok, then each move of each cam bolt must be very small, camber, caster and toe set at the same time...I know sounds crazy but if you try to set each one individually it won't work and you just chase your tail...I've trained many on this and is very hard to get until you try each one a little at a time...you can't set toe after...It will change the camber degree...it is strange that the specs are different on everything on the printout too...I rarely go by specs anyhow because the window is to big...I set mine at 0 with the camber which is more important than caster...usually caster is at 2 or less...depending if it's stock or lifted...toe is 0 too...and I always go by tire ware as well on lifted ones to see if it needs changed ot tire pressure is high or low.
|
Yea that’s what I’m basically being told, the shop is having to set it all at once and not able to get anything in spec. That print out clearly has altered specs for the window to get it green, but this is probably the best it’s driven in a while. Previously it had even more positive camber and looked worse. It would chirp and squeal under braking and turning at slow speeds and felt terrible. Still doesn’t feel great but it’s much closer to normal.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 12:41 PM
|
#12
|
Junior Member
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
|
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRZEE2000TR4LTD
A few strange things here looking at the readouts.
First, in the before measurements the left wheel is showing at of spec with 2.6 degrees. Factory specs are 1.5-1.7 to 3.5-3.7 degrees so that wheel should show green like the other side showing 2.2 degrees. I can barely see the specs but it looks like it's showing different specs side to side which I have never seen before with our trucks. As mentioned, you should either make caster less or camber more on the drivers side or the opposite on the passenger side to compensate for road crown (most people use caster to accomplish this) but I've never seen it speced like that before. Me thinks someone has entered some custom specs to get it it "green". Green doesn't make it right.
Secondly, if the tech were able to get that much caster on the left there should be enough to dial it back and also dial back the camber too because when you change caster you change camber. You may have a frozen cam but I would think a tech would see that and obviously since you have new OEM LCAs you should have full adjust ability, because the LCAs should have come with new OEM bushings. Me thinks the technician is doing something wrong here. Maybe they are not loosening both cams before doing the adjustments. You have to loosen both front and back to make proper adjustments.
You may find you'll need aftermarket UCAs. I have 32s (275 70 17) When I adjusted mine, when I got my camber in spec my caster ended up around 1 degree which is out of spec. Get the SPC LR UCAs and get your full range of adjust ability back and stop the shop from throwing parts at the problem and emptying your wallet.
|
Sadly I have aftermarket UCA’s which is why I’m so confused. They are adjustable with 2 degrees of camber and 4 degrees of caster. At this point I’m wondering if it’s simply the alignment shop not being very good at their job and considering Going to toyota or a dedicated 4 Wheel Parts store for an alignment at either of those places
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 01:29 PM
|
#13
|
Elite Member
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 5,380
|
|
Elite Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 5,380
|
Get us good pictures of those upper control arms. There is no need for upper arms on a stock height truck and those might be messing things up. What are they set at? (they might also be swapped L-R and/or upside down)
What are you measurements from center of hub to fender lip? (help us determine ride height)
I wouldn't trust that last shop - they didn't use the correct specs on the alignment machine.
-Charlie
__________________
'99 4Runner SR5 Auto - 4WD swapped
'89 Camry Alltrac LE 3S-GTE 5spd
'17 Chevy Volt Premier
'16 Honda Odyssey Elite
Previous: '88 Camry Alltrac LE 3S-GE BEAMS, 90 Camry 3S-GTE, 90 Camry DX, '03 WRX wagon, '08 Outback XT
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 01:51 PM
|
#14
|
|
Senior Member
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Bend
Posts: 1,026
|
|
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Bend
Posts: 1,026
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctoombs
Sadly I have aftermarket UCA’s which is why I’m so confused. They are adjustable with 2 degrees of camber and 4 degrees of caster. At this point I’m wondering if it’s simply the alignment shop not being very good at their job and considering Going to toyota or a dedicated 4 Wheel Parts store for an alignment at either of those places
|
There you go - this would have helped from the beginning.
I have not found many shops that understand them. Using SPC arms?
__________________
1999 Base model 4x4 3RZ 5 speed - added e-locker, front Aussie, dual cases with 4.7 front, manual hubs, Tundra/OME 861 springs, Shaved firewall (thanks Tyler James Inc), AssBurns rear links (run as 3 link),Limited interior w/ Mazda3 Grand Touring seats, Savage front and rear bumpers w/ winch, sliders, Thorley header w/ Magnaflow exhaust, SPC UCAs, 37s with 5.29 gears, roof rack and storage box, sport hood, BL and more. Linky
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
02-15-2019, 01:54 PM
|
#15
|
Member
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 528
|
|
Member
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 528
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by phattyduck
Get us good pictures of those upper control arms. There is no need for upper arms on a stock height truck and those might be messing things up. What are they set at? (they might also be swapped L-R and/or upside down)
What are you measurements from center of hub to fender lip? (help us determine ride height)
I wouldn't trust that last shop - they didn't use the correct specs on the alignment machine.
-Charlie
|
I'm willing to bet that the UCAs are the problem. Most of them aren't meant to be used on a stock vehicle.
|
|
Reply With Quote
|
Thread Tools |
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is On
|
|
|
|