User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-14-2019, 11:31 PM #1
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
Alignment issues! Truck cannot get non positive camber.

Hi all,

Long story made short, I have had an ongoing issue with my 1999 limited tr4. I first noticed what I thought was a wheel bearing going bad but turned out to be cupped tires causing the same sort of noise. Fastforward a few shops and few months, I've got basically a brand new front end. New coilovers, new lower control arms (oem), new lower ball joints, new rack and pinion with new inner and outer tie rod ends, new sway bar end links, sway bar bushings, new upper control arms with adjustable camber and caster, new CV axles, etc. The only thing I have not replaced at this point is the spindle and knuckle.

All of this started happening when I went from the 31.5 inch tires I had to 32 inch tires (load rating E to boot). I began noticing visibly positive camber when the truck seemed to be sitting on what was otherwise level ground. All of the above things were done in pursuit of fixing the camber issues after multiple shops were unable to get it to align correctly and drive right.

I finally got a good shop (though they do not have an alignment machine but use a reputable shop near by and they always double check their work), we have replaced all of those parts, but cannot set the camber anything close to 0 without throwing the toe off.




If the image does not show, here is a link to the alignment spec sheet Imgur: The magic of the Internet

This is my latest alignment spec sheet. The truck drives decently but tracks hard to the right with the difference in caster being over a degree between left and right.

The last thing left for us to try is new spindles (we think the knuckle could be bent) otherwise the only explanation the shop can think of is a bent frame.

I'm curious if anyone else has had any experience with something like this. Additionally, will the .15 toe I currently have destroy my tires even more?

Thanks!

Last edited by ctoombs; 02-15-2019 at 12:41 AM. Reason: Original post was a novel.
ctoombs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:18 AM #2
JayRolla's Avatar
JayRolla JayRolla is offline
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 6,015
JayRolla will become famous soon enough
JayRolla JayRolla is offline
Elite Member
JayRolla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: CO
Posts: 6,015
JayRolla will become famous soon enough
Anyway you can sum that story up in a paragraph. I quit reading half way.
__________________
1996 Toyota 4runner Limited - 4" Lift, 33's, AOR Bumper w/winch
1990 Eagle Talon Tsi- E316G @ 32psi E85 Tuned, 272 cams, ECMlink v3.0, 405whp - Gave back to Brother
2012 Toyota Tacoma DCSB - Stock on 32's- Wifes
2004 Cadillac CTS-V - 5.7L LS6 v8, 6-speed 400hp/400tq - My new DD
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-ge...read-pics.html
JayRolla is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:41 AM #3
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
Edited, to a more reader friendly version.
ctoombs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 01:34 AM #4
vipergrhd's Avatar
vipergrhd vipergrhd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburg,CA. Bay area.
Posts: 439
vipergrhd is on a distinguished road
vipergrhd vipergrhd is offline
Member
vipergrhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburg,CA. Bay area.
Posts: 439
vipergrhd is on a distinguished road
Alignment readings

Here is my take on your readings and why you are having a drift or pull to the right, I didn't understand what you mean by you could no longer adjust camber without messing toe. You first adjust Camber/Caster first before you do the toe adjust, you need to even out camber reading close to zero or go half a degree negative and caster reading should be higher on the right side to compensate for road crown and keep the difference less than 1* then set toe to specs more towards positive. In your print out it doesn't show Steering angle inclination (SAI) and Inclination angle (IA) this will tell you if your spindle is bent or frame if you can get a full print out repost it here again.
vipergrhd is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 02:02 AM #5
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
I've done a poor job explaining this, but I've taken the truck to a number of alignment shops, all of whom were unable to get the camber and toe set to zero simultaneously, stating that either or both were maxed out. Since replacing almost the entire front end with new parts, finding a new shop who is definitely more knowledgeable and trustworthy, I've gotten it to the current specs you see today where it definitely drives better but has a strong pull due to the caster.

The word I got from the alignment shop with this most recent readout is that they had tried to set camber as negative as possible, and this was as far as it could go and caster? Any further they were not able to set toe correctly.

Keep in mind this is not the first shop that said something similar.

The shop doing my actual work is separate from the alignment shop. This shop and I suspect its either a bent knuckle or bent frame at this point that is pushing the camber so positive that its not even able to get close to 0.
ctoombs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 02:48 AM #6
vipergrhd's Avatar
vipergrhd vipergrhd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburg,CA. Bay area.
Posts: 439
vipergrhd is on a distinguished road
vipergrhd vipergrhd is offline
Member
vipergrhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Pittsburg,CA. Bay area.
Posts: 439
vipergrhd is on a distinguished road
New readings

Have them print out an SAI and IA readings and I will tell you if something is bent. I'm a hands on kinda person so I apologize not being able to understand the toe being maxed out or cannot be in specs. with a negative or 0*.

Take pics of your adjustment bolts front and rear to see if they have maxed out. I mean the front control arms only.
How much lift do you have? Aftermarket UCA?
YouTube

Last edited by vipergrhd; 02-15-2019 at 03:07 AM. Reason: added video
vipergrhd is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 10:05 AM #7
JRZEE2000TR4LTD's Avatar
JRZEE2000TR4LTD JRZEE2000TR4LTD is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Jersey
Age: 52
Posts: 1,915
Real Name: John
JRZEE2000TR4LTD will become famous soon enough
JRZEE2000TR4LTD JRZEE2000TR4LTD is offline
Senior Member
JRZEE2000TR4LTD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: New Jersey
Age: 52
Posts: 1,915
Real Name: John
JRZEE2000TR4LTD will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctoombs View Post
I've done a poor job explaining this, but I've taken the truck to a number of alignment shops, all of whom were unable to get the camber and toe set to zero simultaneously, stating that either or both were maxed out. Since replacing almost the entire front end with new parts, finding a new shop who is definitely more knowledgeable and trustworthy, I've gotten it to the current specs you see today where it definitely drives better but has a strong pull due to the caster.

The word I got from the alignment shop with this most recent readout is that they had tried to set camber as negative as possible, and this was as far as it could go and caster? Any further they were not able to set toe correctly.

Keep in mind this is not the first shop that said something similar.

The shop doing my actual work is separate from the alignment shop. This shop and I suspect its either a bent knuckle or bent frame at this point that is pushing the camber so positive that its not even able to get close to 0.
A few strange things here looking at the readouts.

First, in the before measurements the left wheel is showing at of spec with 2.6 degrees. Factory specs are 1.5-1.7 to 3.5-3.7 degrees so that wheel should show green like the other side showing 2.2 degrees. I can barely see the specs but it looks like it's showing different specs side to side which I have never seen before with our trucks. As mentioned, you should either make caster less or camber more on the drivers side or the opposite on the passenger side to compensate for road crown (most people use caster to accomplish this) but I've never seen it speced like that before. Me thinks someone has entered some custom specs to get it it "green". Green doesn't make it right.

Secondly, if the tech were able to get that much caster on the left there should be enough to dial it back and also dial back the camber too because when you change caster you change camber. You may have a frozen cam but I would think a tech would see that and obviously since you have new OEM LCAs you should have full adjust ability, because the LCAs should have come with new OEM bushings. Me thinks the technician is doing something wrong here. Maybe they are not loosening both cams before doing the adjustments. You have to loosen both front and back to make proper adjustments.

You may find you'll need aftermarket UCAs. I have 32s (275 70 17) When I adjusted mine, when I got my camber in spec my caster ended up around 1 degree which is out of spec. Get the SPC LR UCAs and get your full range of adjust ability back and stop the shop from throwing parts at the problem and emptying your wallet.
__________________
SILVER 2000 4runner Limited TOTALED
WHITE/SILVER 1999 4runner Limited l Rear Locker l Tundra/890 coils | 5100 Bilsteins all around | Sonoran Steel Bumpstops l 199 mm Tundra brake upgrade | SCS Matte Gray Ray10 Rims | 275 70 17 BFG KO2 tires | LR UCAs | EIMKEITH panhard brackets | LED interior upgrade l Rear LED tailights l Pioneer AVH-X5700BHS Alpine Type "R" speakers NVX JAD800.4 Class D Amp Kenwood Under seat Subwoofer l Front window tint 20% l Weathertech window visors and floormats l OutGear Solutions Full Length roofrack l Morimoto 40" LED lightbar
JRZEE2000TR4LTD is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:13 PM #8
WWRD99's Avatar
WWRD99 WWRD99 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: York, Pa
Posts: 96
Real Name: Rich
WWRD99 will become famous soon enough
WWRD99 WWRD99 is offline
Member
WWRD99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: York, Pa
Posts: 96
Real Name: Rich
WWRD99 will become famous soon enough
One of the many things I learned doing alignments that need to adjust the 3 is set the two that control the camber and caster to max load so the cams don't have to push the load of the vehicle on the little tabs...those can get flattened out...I've welded them to add strength in some in the past from being destroyed...maybe look at the cam bolts and make sure the tabs are not flattened...If they are ok, then each move of each cam bolt must be very small, camber, caster and toe set at the same time...I know sounds crazy but if you try to set each one individually it won't work and you just chase your tail...I've trained many on this and is very hard to get until you try each one a little at a time...you can't set toe after...It will change the camber degree...it is strange that the specs are different on everything on the printout too...I rarely go by specs anyhow because the window is to big...I set mine at 0 with the camber which is more important than caster...usually caster is at 2 or less...depending if it's stock or lifted...toe is 0 too...and I always go by tire ware as well on lifted ones to see if it needs changed ot tire pressure is high or low.
__________________
Bought this 99 in 01 and haven't let it go since! Valve dropped at 195k so I rebuilt it with reman heads, new rings and one new piston...tough to find the correct numbered one but I did...still had the original hatch...I soaped it and did a light hatch to help the new rings seat...that was in 2015...since then I did a basic lift and put some VTX 18x9 inch wheels with 0 offset...Ive grounded the rear locker, ran a diff extension into the gas cap, did the hood piston mod...GM Alternator...13WL brakes..30 year ASE Master Tech with more tools than sense, so I quit everything and work at home now.
WWRD99 is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:22 PM #9
APhelps APhelps is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 490
APhelps has a spectacular aura about APhelps has a spectacular aura about
APhelps APhelps is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 490
APhelps has a spectacular aura about APhelps has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRZEE2000TR4LTD View Post
You may find you'll need aftermarket UCAs. I have 32s (275 70 17) When I adjusted mine, when I got my camber in spec my caster ended up around 1 degree which is out of spec. Get the SPC LR UCAs and get your full range of adjust ability back and stop the shop from throwing parts at the problem and emptying your wallet.
I'm really confused, why would bigger tires be effecting your alignment? That doesn't make any sense. If he lifted the vehicle via springs or etc. that would make a lot of sense even then there looks to be adjustment left in his vehicle.

Last edited by APhelps; 02-15-2019 at 01:53 PM.
APhelps is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:35 PM #10
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
Iím equally confused. There is no lift on the vehicle yet serious alignment issues. I have adjustable control arms up top so at this point Iím not sure if the alignment shop is just garbage and really shitty at their job, could be the case, or Iíve got fear damage pushing my alignment so out of whack no shop can fix it. Thing is, Iíve only ever had tiny fender benders that barely dented the front bumper.

This is my third alignment shop thatís basically jut not able to get it to 0 camber, 0 toe, 3 degrees of caster like I asked. Obviously Iím not the tech and am just going off what Iíve been told.


At this point, I am considering taking it to a Toyota dealer, or just throwing $300 at a 4 Wheel Parts store near by for a custom alignment to get it to the right specs as I just donít believe Iím all the way out of adjustments and cannot get to zero.
ctoombs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:40 PM #11
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by WWRD99 View Post
One of the many things I learned doing alignments that need to adjust the 3 is set the two that control the camber and caster to max load so the cams don't have to push the load of the vehicle on the little tabs...those can get flattened out...I've welded them to add strength in some in the past from being destroyed...maybe look at the cam bolts and make sure the tabs are not flattened...If they are ok, then each move of each cam bolt must be very small, camber, caster and toe set at the same time...I know sounds crazy but if you try to set each one individually it won't work and you just chase your tail...I've trained many on this and is very hard to get until you try each one a little at a time...you can't set toe after...It will change the camber degree...it is strange that the specs are different on everything on the printout too...I rarely go by specs anyhow because the window is to big...I set mine at 0 with the camber which is more important than caster...usually caster is at 2 or less...depending if it's stock or lifted...toe is 0 too...and I always go by tire ware as well on lifted ones to see if it needs changed ot tire pressure is high or low.

Yea thatís what Iím basically being told, the shop is having to set it all at once and not able to get anything in spec. That print out clearly has altered specs for the window to get it green, but this is probably the best itís driven in a while. Previously it had even more positive camber and looked worse. It would chirp and squeal under braking and turning at slow speeds and felt terrible. Still doesnít feel great but itís much closer to normal.
ctoombs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:41 PM #12
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
ctoombs ctoombs is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 29
ctoombs is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRZEE2000TR4LTD View Post
A few strange things here looking at the readouts.

First, in the before measurements the left wheel is showing at of spec with 2.6 degrees. Factory specs are 1.5-1.7 to 3.5-3.7 degrees so that wheel should show green like the other side showing 2.2 degrees. I can barely see the specs but it looks like it's showing different specs side to side which I have never seen before with our trucks. As mentioned, you should either make caster less or camber more on the drivers side or the opposite on the passenger side to compensate for road crown (most people use caster to accomplish this) but I've never seen it speced like that before. Me thinks someone has entered some custom specs to get it it "green". Green doesn't make it right.

Secondly, if the tech were able to get that much caster on the left there should be enough to dial it back and also dial back the camber too because when you change caster you change camber. You may have a frozen cam but I would think a tech would see that and obviously since you have new OEM LCAs you should have full adjust ability, because the LCAs should have come with new OEM bushings. Me thinks the technician is doing something wrong here. Maybe they are not loosening both cams before doing the adjustments. You have to loosen both front and back to make proper adjustments.

You may find you'll need aftermarket UCAs. I have 32s (275 70 17) When I adjusted mine, when I got my camber in spec my caster ended up around 1 degree which is out of spec. Get the SPC LR UCAs and get your full range of adjust ability back and stop the shop from throwing parts at the problem and emptying your wallet.
Sadly I have aftermarket UCAís which is why Iím so confused. They are adjustable with 2 degrees of camber and 4 degrees of caster. At this point Iím wondering if itís simply the alignment shop not being very good at their job and considering Going to toyota or a dedicated 4 Wheel Parts store for an alignment at either of those places
ctoombs is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 01:29 PM #13
phattyduck phattyduck is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,133
phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold
phattyduck phattyduck is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 3,133
phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold phattyduck is a splendid one to behold
Get us good pictures of those upper control arms. There is no need for upper arms on a stock height truck and those might be messing things up. What are they set at? (they might also be swapped L-R and/or upside down)

What are you measurements from center of hub to fender lip? (help us determine ride height)

I wouldn't trust that last shop - they didn't use the correct specs on the alignment machine.

-Charlie
__________________
'99 4Runner SR5 Auto - 4WD swapped
'89 Camry Alltrac LE 3S-GTE 5spd
'16 Honda Odyssey
Previous: '88 Camry Alltrac LE 3S-GE BEAMS, 90 Camry 3S-GTE, 90 Camry DX, '03 WRX wagon, '08 Outback XT
phattyduck is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 01:51 PM #14
rkntoy's Avatar
rkntoy rkntoy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Bend
Posts: 1,003
rkntoy will become famous soon enough
rkntoy rkntoy is offline
Senior Member
rkntoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Bend
Posts: 1,003
rkntoy will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctoombs View Post
Sadly I have aftermarket UCAís which is why Iím so confused. They are adjustable with 2 degrees of camber and 4 degrees of caster. At this point Iím wondering if itís simply the alignment shop not being very good at their job and considering Going to toyota or a dedicated 4 Wheel Parts store for an alignment at either of those places
There you go - this would have helped from the beginning.

I have not found many shops that understand them. Using SPC arms?
__________________
1999 Base model 4x4 3RZ 5 speed - added e-locker, front Aussie, dual cases with 4.7 front, manual hubs, Tundra/OME 861 springs, Shaved firewall (thanks Tyler James Inc), AssBurns rear links (run as 3 link),Limited interior w/ Mazda3 Grand Touring seats, Savage front and rear bumpers w/ winch, sliders, Thorley header w/ Magnaflow exhaust, SPC UCAs, 37s with 5.29 gears, roof rack and storage box, sport hood, BL and more. Linky
rkntoy is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 01:54 PM #15
APhelps APhelps is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 490
APhelps has a spectacular aura about APhelps has a spectacular aura about
APhelps APhelps is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 490
APhelps has a spectacular aura about APhelps has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by phattyduck View Post
Get us good pictures of those upper control arms. There is no need for upper arms on a stock height truck and those might be messing things up. What are they set at? (they might also be swapped L-R and/or upside down)

What are you measurements from center of hub to fender lip? (help us determine ride height)

I wouldn't trust that last shop - they didn't use the correct specs on the alignment machine.

-Charlie
I'm willing to bet that the UCAs are the problem. Most of them aren't meant to be used on a stock vehicle.
APhelps is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Reply

Tags
camber , issues , replaced , shop , truck

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
driving forward causes positive camber reversing it goes straight?? why hawaiian_4runner 3rd gen T4Rs 2 09-10-2014 11:16 PM
Positive Camber - Ball Joint Spacer. Rizon Classic T4Rs 3 05-16-2012 06:59 PM
positive camber issue brs256 Classic T4Rs 3 04-26-2011 04:56 PM
positive camber!! boostedprozac General Discussions 3 07-06-2009 01:49 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
***This site is an unofficial Toyota site, and is not officially endorsed, supported, authorized by or affiliated with Toyota. All company, product, or service names references in this web site are used for identification purposes only and may be trademarks of their respective owners. The Toyota name, marks, designs and logos, as well as Toyota model names, are registered trademarks of Toyota Motor Corporation***Ad Management plugin by RedTyger
 
Copyright © 2020