02-12-2020, 05:00 PM
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#16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeakSauz
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Yes, exactly what I suspected. Your cams are basically the exact opposite of where they should be. The front cams being all the way out pushed the tire back towards the fender and the rear cams being relatively neutral doesn't help that matter either. Have it realigned the other way and your problem should be cured. If you wanted, you could also adjust the cams yourself, pushing the rears all the way out and the fronts to slightly inward and have a shop do a toe set for you without adjusting the cams.
The numbers may not look right on the machine but you've got aftermarket geometry so it doesn't matter. Just watch out for camber in excess of about 1 degree and you're golden.
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'97 3RZ 5 Speed "FrankenRunner" ( Build Thread) - Dormant
The "shitmobile" 500$ 3RZ Auto 4Runner - ( Saved from the Scrapyard: Resurrecting a 500$ 3rd Gen
02 Tacoma Double Cab, mid-travel, locked, armored, supercharged and riced. (Longbed and 5 speed in the works)
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02-12-2020, 05:17 PM
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#17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderFire
Yes, exactly what I suspected. Your cams are basically the exact opposite of where they should be. The front cams being all the way out pushed the tire back towards the fender and the rear cams being relatively neutral doesn't help that matter either. Have it realigned the other way and your problem should be cured. If you wanted, you could also adjust the cams yourself, pushing the rears all the way out and the fronts to slightly inward and have a shop do a toe set for you without adjusting the cams.
The numbers may not look right on the machine but you've got aftermarket geometry so it doesn't matter. Just watch out for camber in excess of about 1 degree and you're golden.
Sent from my JSN-L23 using Tapatalk
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I owe you one- exactly the info I needed. I think, to your point, alignment techs are seeing the computer show "all green", but it kinda goes all out of the window when suspension geometry is not OEM. Thank you sir.
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02-12-2020, 05:47 PM
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#18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coward
Someone else correct me, but if you install those LCA with the ball joint moved forward you will have crazy caster. I would think you would need adjustable uppers as well to make it all work?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesooohoppy
i was under the assumption aftermarket UCAs help correct the caster when you raise the vehicle.
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The Solo LCAs move the LBJ forward to correct caster with a stock UCA (or aftermarket UCA, but with the stock UBJ position). Wheel moves forward in wheel well as a result. (which also has benefits in terms of firewall clearance and approach angle)
Most aftermarket UCAs move the UBJ rearward to correct caster - but this increases firewall interference (wheel moves back toward firewall).
I'm of the camp that thinks the factory LBJ is fine if replaced at a reasonable interval.
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02-12-2020, 06:36 PM
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#19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eimkeith
The Solo LCAs move the LBJ forward to correct caster with a stock UCA (or aftermarket UCA, but with the stock UBJ position). Wheel moves forward in wheel well as a result. (which also has benefits in terms of firewall clearance and approach angle)
Most aftermarket UCAs move the UBJ rearward to correct caster - but this increases firewall interference (wheel moves back toward firewall).
I'm of the camp that thinks the factory LBJ is fine if replaced at a reasonable interval.
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good to know. thank you.
i have seen threads in the past with people bashing on the OEM LBJ design, although they provide zero proof why the design is a 'bad' design. i think they're just angry toyota didnt design it the way they wanted it to be designed.
i changed mine last november and im sure they were from the factory at 235k. thats pretty good to me! if someone wants a uniball LBJ bad enough, they can make it themselves although its not as simple as stuffing a uniball into a modded OEM LBJ as others have tried in the past (the tacoma link i provided earlier proves this point).
look at me, telling the great
@ eimkeith
designing something isnt going to be easy. want a new project? ;)
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02-12-2020, 06:55 PM
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#20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesooohoppy
good to know. thank you.
i have seen threads in the past with people bashing on the OEM LBJ design, although they provide zero proof why the design is a 'bad' design. i think they're just angry toyota didnt design it the way they wanted it to be designed.
i changed mine last november and im sure they were from the factory at 235k. thats pretty good to me! if someone wants a uniball LBJ bad enough, they can make it themselves although its not as simple as stuffing a uniball into a modded OEM LBJ as others have tried in the past (the tacoma link i provided earlier proves this point).
look at me, telling the great
@ eimkeith
designing something isnt going to be easy. want a new project? ;)
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lol - I spent more than a minute looking at alternatives to the LBJ design; eventually, I didn't see the upside in changing it - although I recognize the additional safety factor that Toyota introduced by inverting it on the 4th gen.
That said, some really smart folk may come along and astound us all with an out of the box alternative. For now, I'm just considering them as wear items.
Jason Hoffman and I discussed this a bit on the Toyota Trucks and Trails podcast recently, and I know
@ AssBurns
has voiced his opinion about heims/sphericals used on road-going vehicles a bit on the F/R Locked podcast as well - lots of discussion on the factory LBJs going on nowadays.
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02-13-2020, 07:28 AM
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#21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeakSauz
I owe you one- exactly the info I needed. I think, to your point, alignment techs are seeing the computer show "all green", but it kinda goes all out of the window when suspension geometry is not OEM. Thank you sir.
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No problem.
There is a lesson to be learned by all participants in this thread. It is important to take a step back and learn how the suspension functions completely before delving into aftermarket geometry and adjustable suspensions.
You can waste quite literally thousands of dollars chasing your tail if you don't take the time to learn and understand the functions of the OEM suspension components and exactly what these aftermarket parts are modifying. This goes for anything from the most simple drop-in mod like a set of lift shocks way up to the dampening adjustable coilovers, long travel kits, solid axle swaps etc.
No matter how much money you spend on it, improper setup will lead to poor results. Being a modified vehicle, it's on you to know what you need and you cannot expect anyone else to be as well versed as you should be.
Sent from my JSN-L23 using Tapatalk
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'97 3RZ 5 Speed "FrankenRunner" ( Build Thread) - Dormant
The "shitmobile" 500$ 3RZ Auto 4Runner - ( Saved from the Scrapyard: Resurrecting a 500$ 3rd Gen
02 Tacoma Double Cab, mid-travel, locked, armored, supercharged and riced. (Longbed and 5 speed in the works)
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02-13-2020, 08:34 AM
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#22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderFire
Yes, exactly what I suspected. Your cams are basically the exact opposite of where they should be. The front cams being all the way out pushed the tire back towards the fender and the rear cams being relatively neutral doesn't help that matter either. Have it realigned the other way and your problem should be cured. If you wanted, you could also adjust the cams yourself, pushing the rears all the way out and the fronts to slightly inward and have a shop do a toe set for you without adjusting the cams.
The numbers may not look right on the machine but you've got aftermarket geometry so it doesn't matter. Just watch out for camber in excess of about 1 degree and you're golden.
Sent from my JSN-L23 using Tapatalk
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Forgive me for the dumb question but is it just because of his after market uca that are changing his geometry to where it may not be the best to have alignment all green? I have a similar height lift but on stock uca and notice some weird feeling stuff after getting alignment. Wondering if I should take it back and get alignment that’s better for geometry than what the computer is telling the tech
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02-13-2020, 10:50 AM
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#23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesooohoppy
good to know. thank you.
i have seen threads in the past with people bashing on the OEM LBJ design, although they provide zero proof why the design is a 'bad' design. i think they're just angry toyota didnt design it the way they wanted it to be designed.
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The design is bad because the ball is being ripped out of the pocket rather than pushed into the pocket.
The orientation of the ball joint used on these trucks would only be used on vehicles where the strut mounts to the knuckle.
On vehicles where the strut mounts to the lower A-arm the ball joint is flipped and the A-arm interfaces the knuckle from above.
Force pushes up on the tire and knuckle. This in turn pulls up on the lower ball joint and A-arm. The strut pushes down on the A-arm counteracting the up force.
Proper orientation of the ball joint would have the knuckle be below the A-arm and be pushing the ball joint up into the A-arm.
This design flaw gets explained in pretty well all of these threads. Not sure how you could have missed it.
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Owned 82, 83, 87 pickup, 98, 99 SR5 4runner
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02-13-2020, 12:03 PM
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#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselchessy
The design is bad because the ball is being ripped out of the pocket rather than pushed into the pocket.
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under static load the ball is pushing into the 'pocket'. i guess i fail to see what you are saying here?
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02-13-2020, 01:14 PM
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#25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mesooohoppy
under static load the ball is pushing into the 'pocket'. i guess i fail to see what you are saying here?
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Nope, the lower control arm with the ball joint sits below the knuckle. The LCA is being pushed down by the spring and the knuckle is being held up by the tire on the ground. The ball joint is in tension, not compression.
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02-13-2020, 01:56 PM
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#26
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Owned 82, 83, 87 pickup, 98, 99 SR5 4runner
Currently own a 98 SR5, 5spd, 4x4, e-locker, no sunroof. 2012 LTD with the normal options.
Last edited by Dieselchessy; 02-13-2020 at 02:16 PM.
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02-13-2020, 03:46 PM
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#27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pj Benn
Forgive me for the dumb question but is it just because of his after market uca that are changing his geometry to where it may not be the best to have alignment all green? I have a similar height lift but on stock uca and notice some weird feeling stuff after getting alignment. Wondering if I should take it back and get alignment that’s better for geometry than what the computer is telling the tech
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Not necessarily, even a change in ride height and tire size will change where the alignment should be set. Define your weird feeling stuff, once you lift your truck (even a moderate amount, say 2") your alignment specs should change to a point where you can feel it.
But even at 3" the truck can still drive very well if aligned properly, with the one sacrifice being the steering will feel different. If aligned properly the steering should not follow divots in the road, it should drive straight down the road without any input from you and should not have in excess of about 1 degree of camber.
The thing you'll notice that should change is the steering should feel much tighter and have a strong tendency to return to center, even fighting you as you make tight corners to an extent. This is what the aftermarket UCA's really cure, and once you have a proper alignment and UCAs set up to correct the caster you shouldn't be able to tell the difference between a stock truck and a truck with 3" of lift.
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'97 3RZ 5 Speed "FrankenRunner" ( Build Thread) - Dormant
The "shitmobile" 500$ 3RZ Auto 4Runner - ( Saved from the Scrapyard: Resurrecting a 500$ 3rd Gen
02 Tacoma Double Cab, mid-travel, locked, armored, supercharged and riced. (Longbed and 5 speed in the works)
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02-13-2020, 04:40 PM
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#28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopeless Diamond
Nope, the lower control arm with the ball joint sits below the knuckle. The LCA is being pushed down by the spring and the knuckle is being held up by the tire on the ground. The ball joint is in tension, not compression.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselchessy
very helpful picture
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thank you both, the picture really helps clear it up for me!
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