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Old 07-09-2020, 03:48 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselchessy View Post
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I like the 231 TBU. Never considered the 199, cause it comes with similar dust shield trimming and wheel firmament issues.
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I thought the 199 does not have the wheel fitment issues that even the 3 spoke fits?

OP - I think this was not answered, yes you also have to modify the dust shield but only a little bit of grinding is needed (no trimming or cutting) where the rotor hat rubs against the middle part of the dust shield, I believe this is shown on the 231 thread mentioned above.

I went with 199s w/OEM rotors because of the more pronounced ABS issue with the 231 and the SS advisory against it. I also do not tow. If you mainly use your rig in fair weather and tow or have armour/additional weight I would definitely consider the 231. The 4runner ABS kicked in too early stock already so messing with the system with a bigger caliper that is not designed for it makes it worse I assume.

Sure you only get a thicker rotor specially if you have the sports ed brake which is bigger than std. but this thickness might be all the difference you need. In terms of people saying why even upgrade to the 199, you probably need a new caliper anyway so might as well replace it with a 199 and you get thicker rotors. If your brake lines are stock, might as well go braided and don't forget the rear hose too (I just got rubber aftermarket for the rear). Lastly,yes make sure your rear brakes are well adjusted to help out the front.

edit: If you're replacing the rear brakes, def. get OEM shoes as I've heard about fitment issues with aftermarket. Also check if your drums can still be turned, the OEM drums are built solid! When mine were turned the first time at 130K I noticed that there was just about 1mm material removed. i wouldn't have worked on my rear brakes but it was soaked in gear oil, so no choice.

Last edited by Arv; 07-09-2020 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 07-09-2020, 07:44 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselchessy View Post
Sounds like tires should be on your short list.
You probably slid a tire across a paint line or man hole cover, or similar. That’s a tire issue, also exacerbated by warped rotors.

I like the 231 TBU. Never considered the 199, cause it comes with similar dust shield trimming and wheel firmament issues.

But as suggest 4 good brakes is better than 2, so adjust your rears and maybe upgrade the cylinders to 1” if you have the smaller ones. Also check your axle seals aren’t leaking, and flush the brake system with DOT3 fluid.
I actually have a new set of BFG A/T K02's, just waiting on new wheels and my lift kit to come in so I can put them on. Not about to pay to have the same tires to be mounted and aligned twice (if they would even fit on stock susp.) They're next on my list but brakes can be done in the mean time; the rain should taper off in the next week, maybe two, but people drive like retards year-round. If I recall a few years back my county was in top 3 for worst drivers in the country
Originally I wanted 199s because I saw a few people on here say they ran into problems with their ABS with 231s, but this also seems like it's largely made up of 01-02 owners. Was also under the impression that the 199s wouldn't require trimming the dust shield, but obviously that isn't true. Since I'm spacing my wheels anyways, and will be carrying extra weight, might just go with 231s now
199s should have no fitment issues, I thought?
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Originally Posted by Arv View Post
I went with 199s w/OEM rotors because of the more pronounced ABS issue with the 231 and the SS advisory against it. I also do not tow. If you mainly use your rig in fair weather and tow or have armour/additional weight I would definitely consider the 231... Sure you only get a thicker rotor specially if you have the sports ed brake which is bigger than std. but this thickness might be all the difference you need...
Thanks for the info! I NEVER tow but will be running about ~400 extra lbs with the additions of bumpers+winch+tire carrier
Indeed I have the SR5 Sport! What exactly does this mean, are you saying?
Thanks for the heads up on the shoes
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Old 07-09-2020, 08:12 PM #18
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Indeed I have the SR5 Sport! What exactly does this mean, are you saying?
not entirely sure since I'm not familiar with all the 3rd gen year models but I believe the 99-00 sports ed had bigger brake 13" rotors compared to 12"? std. rotors which probably became std in 01-02 since all of them had 16" wheels.
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Old 07-09-2020, 10:15 PM #19
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I don’t know where folks got the idea the 199’s clear all the wheels.

It’s a thickness issue, not a length issue. Maybe the 199’s fit under some wheels that 231’s don’t? I haven’t tried every combo.

Need to check your spare as well.

Just one thread of a person having firemen issues.

199mm Caliper Wheel Fitment Issues
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Old 07-10-2020, 08:48 AM #20
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Originally Posted by gamefreakgc View Post
My ABS system used to kick in all the time before the TBU brakes. The 96-98 system isn't that great and will kick in at the slightest loss of traction. After doing to upgrade it takes less pressure to engage the brakes so I've only had the ABS go off a few times when they actually did lose traction. It should help.
I'd argue the opposite.. I started noticing more sensitive abs, like say you come to an abrupt stop and there's a manhole cover in your path. Unless you went from brand new stock brakes to brand new Tundra brakes we can't really know. Not that ABS was that great to begin with.

The ABS is a whole separate issue, and I think it has to do with brake bleeding or just a plain bad ABS pump(maybe more common than we think past 150k).
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Old 07-10-2020, 03:48 PM #21
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Originally Posted by T4R2014 View Post

The ABS is a whole separate issue, and I think it has to do with brake bleeding or just a plain bad ABS pump(maybe more common than we think past 150k).
OR the 4runner ABS was DESIGNED and CALIBRATED with the 4Runner caliper and changing to a Tundra caliper whether the 199 or 231 messes with the engineering and design. I'm no ABS expert but I'm assuming that the ABS pump is pumping at a designated amount/rate but now the volume of brake fluid in the caliper and size of pistons, pads, etc... have changed so it does not work as well or as designed. This is why I am also thinking that the ABS issue is more pronounced with the bigger 231 vs the 199 that are almost the same size as the stock calipers.

Its an anti-locking brake system, designed by Engineers with individual parts that work well together, sometimes we get lucky when when change something in an Engineered System and it works well or even better BUT I'm afraid it might not be the case for this brake upgrade wrt the ABS.

Last edited by Arv; 07-10-2020 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 07-11-2020, 12:28 AM #22
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OR the 4runner ABS was DESIGNED and CALIBRATED with the 4Runner caliper and changing to a Tundra caliper whether the 199 or 231 messes with the engineering and design. I'm no ABS expert but I'm assuming that the ABS pump is pumping at a designated amount/rate but now the volume of brake fluid in the caliper and size of pistons, pads, etc... have changed so it does not work as well or as designed. This is why I am also thinking that the ABS issue is more pronounced with the bigger 231 vs the 199 that are almost the same size as the stock calipers.

Its an anti-locking brake system, designed by Engineers with individual parts that work well together, sometimes we get lucky when when change something in an Engineered System and it works well or even better BUT I'm afraid it might not be the case for this brake upgrade wrt the ABS.
All I'm saying is that on stock calipers with good pads with plenty of life, I would skid into the intersection on a regular basis in the rain because the ABS would kick on when I was in complete control of the vehicle. Put on bigger brakes and it doesn't happen anymore.
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Old 07-11-2020, 12:52 AM #23
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All I'm saying is that on stock calipers with good pads with plenty of life, I would skid into the intersection on a regular basis in the rain because the ABS would kick on when I was in complete control of the vehicle. Put on bigger brakes and it doesn't happen anymore.
Well I guess you're one of the exceptions, good for you. Like I said sometimes we get lucky when when change something in an engineered system and it works well or even better. In you case it paid off.

I had a few ABS incidents in the snow but its more like ice under a thin layer of snow so I think any ABS would have activated then. I never had any ABS incidents in the rain as I drive more careful (I think I do, lol) when its wet but ABS always kicked in for me in dry conditions even when the rig was new when I would be slowing down to take a turn (not really even turning that much yet) and I hit a bump or pot hole, maybe even a crack lol! I did come in pretty hot most of those times but as i recall some were pretty slow speeds.
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Old 07-11-2020, 01:16 AM #24
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Well I guess you're one of the exceptions, good for you. Like I said sometimes we get lucky when when change something in an engineered system and it works well or even better. In you case it paid off.

I had a few ABS incidents in the snow but its more like ice under a thin layer of snow so I think any ABS would have activated then. I never had any ABS incidents in the rain as I drive more careful (I think I do, lol) when its wet but ABS always kicked in for me in dry conditions even when the rig was new when I would be slowing down to take a turn (not really even turning that much yet) and I hit a bump or pot hole, maybe even a crack lol! I did come in pretty hot most of those times but as i recall some were pretty slow speeds.
I still get the ABS kick-in too over speed bumps. Usually because I didn't see it and the wheels literally come off the ground lol.
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Old 07-11-2020, 03:12 AM #25
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I think(??) that the issue with the ABS is that it pulses all the wheels when one slips. So your stopping fine, one wheel sensor detects a lockup, and the ABS then pulses all 4 wheels reducing braking power.

For me the TBU upgrade helps with the ABS. The way it helps is by avoiding warped rotors. When my stock rotors would warp then braking wasn't smooth and I'd lock up wheels much more often. With the TBU rotors don't warp and applying smooth consistent braking to avoid lock-ups is much easier.

I live up in the hills above town, so my daily drive involves several miles of down hill with switch backs and stop signs right at the bottom of hills. The OEM size 4 runner brakes never survived long.

I've never owned newer than a 99 so don't have intimate knowledge of the newer ABS.

I don't try and outsmart Engineers. I just understand that they have to consider many factors in their designs and sometimes I have a much narrower focus and usage. Sometimes changing things like suspension and such doesn't improve the overall design but for a small focus area of use. And almost always there is tradeoff and compromise when making changes.
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Old 07-12-2020, 03:29 AM #26
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OR the 4runner ABS was DESIGNED and CALIBRATED with the 4Runner caliper and changing to a Tundra caliper whether the 199 or 231 messes with the engineering and design. I'm no ABS expert but I'm assuming that the ABS pump is pumping at a designated amount/rate but now the volume of brake fluid in the caliper and size of pistons, pads, etc... have changed so it does not work as well or as designed. This is why I am also thinking that the ABS issue is more pronounced with the bigger 231 vs the 199 that are almost the same size as the stock calipers.

Its an anti-locking brake system, designed by Engineers with individual parts that work well together, sometimes we get lucky when when change something in an Engineered System and it works well or even better BUT I'm afraid it might not be the case for this brake upgrade wrt the ABS.
Oh, I definitely agree on the calibration. I don't think brakes are so simple. I wonder how 231's affect VSC performance in 01-02s. Even the rear wheel cylinders differ depending on what factory brake option you have. That being said these ABS systems can exhibit funky behavior even on factory calipers. Tundra brakes didn't help. Almost sounds like the pump starts working more slowly over time.
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Old 07-12-2020, 03:37 AM #27
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I think(??) that the issue with the ABS is that it pulses all the wheels when one slips. So your stopping fine, one wheel sensor detects a lockup, and the ABS then pulses all 4 wheels reducing braking power.

For me the TBU upgrade helps with the ABS. The way it helps is by avoiding warped rotors. When my stock rotors would warp then braking wasn't smooth and I'd lock up wheels much more often. With the TBU rotors don't warp and applying smooth consistent braking to avoid lock-ups is much easier.

I live up in the hills above town, so my daily drive involves several miles of down hill with switch backs and stop signs right at the bottom of hills. The OEM size 4 runner brakes never survived long.

I've never owned newer than a 99 so don't have intimate knowledge of the newer ABS.

I don't try and outsmart Engineers. I just understand that they have to consider many factors in their designs and sometimes I have a much narrower focus and usage. Sometimes changing things like suspension and such doesn't improve the overall design but for a small focus area of use. And almost always there is tradeoff and compromise when making changes.
Your explanation makes it sound like Toyota sold these off dealer lots and handed keys to automotive journalists with rotors completely warped. I have a feeling if they problem was as bad as it seems on T4R.org(home of the "LBJ failures are caused by anything but lift kits" crowd), then there would've been an SSC sent to your mail which got you upgraded calipers. Toyota did this for early Tundras.
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Old 07-12-2020, 10:53 AM #28
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Your explanation makes it sound like Toyota sold these off dealer lots and handed keys to automotive journalists with rotors completely warped. I have a feeling if they problem was as bad as it seems on T4R.org(home of the "LBJ failures are caused by anything but lift kits" crowd), then there would've been an SSC sent to your mail which got you upgraded calipers. Toyota did this for early Tundras.
I realize your on a big anti-TBU kick and take every opportunity to profess your distain.
I can agree to disagree.
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Old 07-12-2020, 08:10 PM #29
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I realize your on a big anti-TBU kick and take every opportunity to profess your distain.
I can agree to disagree.
I mean come on, let's try to reason with this mod. It's like every other mod bandwagon. Haven't really heard any numerical proof of this mod performing better than stock. Even the claim that the 199mm caliper displaces the same amount of fluid as stock is pretty much unbased as far as I've seen. Two 199mm setups using ceramic and semi-metallic pads yet I couldn't get a better result than simply staying stock and ensuring the rears were in proper adjustment. Perhaps it prevents warping for avg 10,000 miles more than stock. But then is it really worth the cost of upgrading all the calipers? Might as well spend the cash on better quality rotors. Second gen 4Runners use a very similar rear setup but you rarely hear warpage issues. Similar with the newest Taco as well. I'm just looking for the cause.

OH btw, I'll keep people updated on the 199mm with EBC setup once installed.
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Old 09-27-2020, 06:34 PM #30
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@Devbot What did you go with. I'm about 1000 miles into the EBC Greenstuff 6000 with EBC blanks. Their rotors nicer than Brembo's. The Greenstuff 6000 pads have a decent bite, and definitely better than Powerstop ceramics.Only downside is the dust is insane. I still recommend PBR heavy duty brake pads for their bite and low dust.
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