10-05-2020, 11:59 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,328
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroBoy
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Coal, natural gas, same group to me haha.
But yes, nuclear is the future. Honestly I wish they would stop wasting fossil fuels on power so we can save it for vehicles.
All hail the power of the atom!
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10-06-2020, 12:25 AM
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#32
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,328
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepydad
As battery energy density continues to rise EV will take more market share.
if life has shown me anything: it's that people are lazy and something that costs less and is easier to use will win out. convenience wins for the mass of people.
charging stations have shown up at the Target store by my house already. Plug your tesla in while you grab your target run. it's real and it's happening. I personally know 2 people who own tesla's and they say they will never go back to ICE.
the other thing it has shown me is that markets are diverse, way more diverse than most people believe. back in the 1970's there was one kind of spaghetti sauce. only one god dam sauce, but today there are 30-40 different kinds. This market fragmentation will continue and making generalizations will never hold 100% of the time. This will be the case with transportation going forward. it might take another 30-40 years to sunset ICE but it will happen in most of the US light car/truck domestic market.
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Don't hold out on battery capacity. It's going to be extremely difficult to get much more capacity without turning them into mega bombs. Lithium batteries are already pretty dangerous, imagine one with twice the capacity? Twice the boom! But in all seriousness, battery tech is just about maxed out.
And... thinking about it just now... isn't the average ICE only up to 20% efficient? Imagine if they got them up to 40-60%? I beleive the theroetical maximum for ICE's is like 80%. ICE's will probably have a heavy hitting come back as their efficiencies improve. In fact, if they improved enough it may flip everything. Imagine electric ones with their expensive/dangerous/limited life batteries become less desirable and people talking about new super efficient ICE's.
Imagine a 4Runner with around 270hp but with 32 mpg city / 38 mpg hwy fuel economy and something like an 700+ mile range.
All for about the same cost as they are now. Something like that would KO electric cars out of the ring. And that's a theoretical increase from say 20% to 40%, or roughly double. Imagine what it would be like at 50% or 60%? Oh shit there is so much more power to pull from a single gallon of gas.
I imagine some automakers and oil companies will be pushing ICE's thermal efficiencies to keep in the game. Hey, if this gives us more power and economy then I'm down. Competition rules!
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10-06-2020, 01:18 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 1,415
Real Name: Keith
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 1,415
Real Name: Keith
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There's a Chevron station just down the street from me that has a hydrogen kiosk. Every time I drive past---which is often---and there's someone filling their Toyota Mirai car with Hydrogen, I say to myself, out loud, in a cheery voice: 'Hope she don't blow!'
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10-06-2020, 09:30 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,488
Real Name: Andy ಠ_ಠ
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,488
Real Name: Andy ಠ_ಠ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jross20
Don't hold out on battery capacity. It's going to be extremely difficult to get much more capacity without turning them into mega bombs. Lithium batteries are already pretty dangerous, imagine one with twice the capacity? Twice the boom! But in all seriousness, battery tech is just about maxed out.
And... thinking about it just now... isn't the average ICE only up to 20% efficient? Imagine if they got them up to 40-60%? I beleive the theroetical maximum for ICE's is like 80%. ICE's will probably have a heavy hitting come back as their efficiencies improve. In fact, if they improved enough it may flip everything. Imagine electric ones with their expensive/dangerous/limited life batteries become less desirable and people talking about new super efficient ICE's.
Imagine a 4Runner with around 270hp but with 32 mpg city / 38 mpg hwy fuel economy and something like an 700+ mile range.
All for about the same cost as they are now. Something like that would KO electric cars out of the ring. And that's a theoretical increase from say 20% to 40%, or roughly double. Imagine what it would be like at 50% or 60%? Oh shit there is so much more power to pull from a single gallon of gas.
I imagine some automakers and oil companies will be pushing ICE's thermal efficiencies to keep in the game. Hey, if this gives us more power and economy then I'm down. Competition rules!
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in the event of an accident/damage either lithium batteries or gasoline can be dangerous. yes when you stuff a bunch of energy into a small space it can come out in unexpected ways. But don't give me the batteries are dangerous BS of course they are, oil drilling is dangerous, lithium mining is dangerous, oil tankers leak or crash, pipelines leak or burst, tanker trucks have accidents and explode, refineries have accidents.... inherent risk is everywhere.
we know the efficiency % for most types of engines, extensive R&D has been done. if we really cared we would be driving around in gas turbine powered vehicles.
if solving the thermal efficiency problem was easy it would have been done. gas driven ICE engines are terrible, but initial cost is cheap and they are easy to maintain. GDI was a step in the right direction.
I agree competition is good. Otherwise the ICE people would just sit on the arse drinking beer and watching shark week.
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10-06-2020, 12:22 PM
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#36
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,328
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepydad
in the event of an accident/damage either lithium batteries or gasoline can be dangerous. yes when you stuff a bunch of energy into a small space it can come out in unexpected ways. But don't give me the batteries are dangerous BS of course they are, oil drilling is dangerous, lithium mining is dangerous, oil tankers leak or crash, pipelines leak or burst, tanker trucks have accidents and explode, refineries have accidents.... inherent risk is everywhere.
we know the efficiency % for most types of engines, extensive R&D has been done. if we really cared we would be driving around in gas turbine powered vehicles.
if solving the thermal efficiency problem was easy it would have been done. gas driven ICE engines are terrible, but initial cost is cheap and they are easy to maintain. GDI was a step in the right direction.
I agree competition is good. Otherwise the ICE people would just sit on the arse drinking beer and watching shark week.
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Generally agreed, except that batteries do some with an extra cost that most people never mention. The waste. What do you do with the old batteries? Most people will never recycle them unless they are forced to, and it is expensive. These things aren't going to last more than a few years for most people since, as everyone forgets the hunen element, people don't generally drive light footed but especially if the car is fast. So this will kill the batteries even faster. Not to mention certian weather conditions and the geographical location. But I digress, even if they last 10 years... We will have a growing issue.
So my worry is we end up with a shit ton of chemical waste at the end of each battery's life that will never be properly processed.
Oil and lithium both have to be extracted, but once gas is ready to use you don't have to recycle it later. You just use it. The battery doesn't go away, haha
Something I would love to see is if someone came up with a use for co2. Imagine a huge demand for it and companies building machines to pull it from the air to use it. I've no idea what it would be, maybe split the molecules to extract carbon for graphene and shit. Who knows.
Basically if we could just manually control the co2 content in the air. Create something to profit from and people will do it.
But hey, in the end, if a lot of people switch it's just more gas for us I reckon
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10-06-2020, 03:58 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,488
Real Name: Andy ಠ_ಠ
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,488
Real Name: Andy ಠ_ಠ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jross20
Generally agreed, except that batteries do some with an extra cost that most people never mention. The waste. What do you do with the old batteries? Most people will never recycle them unless they are forced to, and it is expensive. These things aren't going to last more than a few years for most people since, as everyone forgets the hunen element, people don't generally drive light footed but especially if the car is fast. So this will kill the batteries even faster. Not to mention certian weather conditions and the geographical location. But I digress, even if they last 10 years... We will have a growing issue.
So my worry is we end up with a shit ton of chemical waste at the end of each battery's life that will never be properly processed.
Oil and lithium both have to be extracted, but once gas is ready to use you don't have to recycle it later. You just use it. The battery doesn't go away, haha
Something I would love to see is if someone came up with a use for co2. Imagine a huge demand for it and companies building machines to pull it from the air to use it. I've no idea what it would be, maybe split the molecules to extract carbon for graphene and shit. Who knows.
Basically if we could just manually control the co2 content in the air. Create something to profit from and people will do it.
But hey, in the end, if a lot of people switch it's just more gas for us I reckon
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I was going to reply with something interesting but I just saw that Eddie Van Halen died. RIP Eddie
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10-06-2020, 04:09 PM
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#38
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Banned
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Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 2,247
Real Name: Mark
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Banned
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 2,247
Real Name: Mark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jross20
Generally agreed, except that batteries do some with an extra cost that most people never mention. The waste. What do you do with the old batteries? Most people will never recycle them unless they are forced to, and it is expensive. These things aren't going to last more than a few years for most people since, as everyone forgets the hunen element, people don't generally drive light footed but especially if the car is fast. So this will kill the batteries even faster. Not to mention certian weather conditions and the geographical location. But I digress, even if they last 10 years... We will have a growing issue.
So my worry is we end up with a shit ton of chemical waste at the end of each battery's life that will never be properly processed.
Oil and lithium both have to be extracted, but once gas is ready to use you don't have to recycle it later. You just use it. The battery doesn't go away, haha
Something I would love to see is if someone came up with a use for co2. Imagine a huge demand for it and companies building machines to pull it from the air to use it. I've no idea what it would be, maybe split the molecules to extract carbon for graphene and shit. Who knows.
Basically if we could just manually control the co2 content in the air. Create something to profit from and people will do it.
But hey, in the end, if a lot of people switch it's just more gas for us I reckon
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Is there something about lithium batteries that makes it impossible to recycle and extract the lithium and other materials for re-use?
These batteries weigh many hundred of pounds. Not exactly a DYI undertaking even if consumers could buy them. It would be like Tesla does, you go to them, they install a new battery pack, they recycle it, you drive away.
Last time I bought an automotive lead-acid battery I returned the old one to get my $20 back. That’s the incentive not to dump it.
How to Recycle Lead-Acid Batteries – RecycleNation
Last edited by ElectroBoy; 10-06-2020 at 04:13 PM.
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10-06-2020, 05:46 PM
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#39
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Eugene
Posts: 16
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Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Eugene
Posts: 16
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I think that it's going to be a long time until gas powered vehicles are phased out. While we're starting to see Tesla's appear on the roads, we've still got a long way to go.
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10-06-2020, 06:30 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,328
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectroBoy
Is there something about lithium batteries that makes it impossible to recycle and extract the lithium and other materials for re-use?
These batteries weigh many hundred of pounds. Not exactly a DYI undertaking even if consumers could buy them. It would be like Tesla does, you go to them, they install a new battery pack, they recycle it, you drive away.
Last time I bought an automotive lead-acid battery I returned the old one to get my $20 back. That’s the incentive not to dump it.
How to Recycle Lead-Acid Batteries – RecycleNation
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My understanding is it is not cheap to recycle lithium batteries. It isn't just lithium but other chemicals and the complexity of them. I'm not sure what the market name is for it, but it costs more to recycle them the they are worth unlike some other materials.
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