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Old 02-18-2021, 04:13 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texadelphia View Post
I'm very confused by all these descriptions. Anyone have a primer on all the different options and what they mean? I have a '97 SR5 which just has the J-shift transfer case. I'm familiar with differential locks on rears and fronts from my Jeep days, but a center differential lock is a new concept to me.

I'm assuming the later gen 4wd systems with the button on the shifter is what we're talking about. So they essentially have a center differential which acts as an "AWD" system that distributes power between front and rear based on which wheels are slipping? The "center diff lock" basically means traditional 4wd mode where front and rear are getting equal distribution of power at all times which is what the J-shift transfer case does in any 4wd mode?
This might help
T-case Differences (all years of 3rd gens).. transfer case, AWD, multi-mode
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Old 02-19-2021, 11:09 AM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck View Post
You're pretty close. When in 4HI (not locked) the transfer case acts like a limited slip differential and allows the front and rear driveshaft to spin at different rates while still applying torque to the front and rear driveshafts. I haven't found any technical data from toyota on what the torque split is, but my guess is 30/70 front/rear split.

When 4HI Locked is engaged it locks the front and rear driveshafts together forcing them to spin at the same speed regardless of traction. Essentially the same as when 4wd is engaged in a normal j shift transfer case.
This is correct. 2 buttons, 1 lever. One button (on Low/High lever) engages 4wd in AWD mode. Optionally, the dash button engages the center diff.

The 01/02 also have a nifty feature where once in 4Lo, one can set the trans shifter to '2'. This allows the trans to start in 2nd gear from a standstill. If one is planning on going faster than say 5-10 mph, starting in 2 prevents the harsh 1-2 shift that occurs in 4Lo, kinda cool.

Once again, I was very impressed with how the truck handled ice, snow, chuncked/melted/refrozen snow and places where the surfaces were mixed, sometimes no ice/snow on left wheels while right side had snow or ice, it handled it All perfectly, especially if i locked the center diff.

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Old 02-19-2021, 02:08 PM #18
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Spend some quality time with lots of winter weather and you'll find that 4wd is Rarely needed. This is from my old T100 (same 3.4l engine and trans):



I'm pretty sure I was in 2wd for the driver where I picked up that load of ice. I say that because I simply never needed 4wd on roads (this was Wyoming, FWIW, but held true for going to my folks ski cabin in Montana, or really any ski hill from Banff Canada on down to Durango, CO). AT tires, not winter rated, never needed chains ~ even to extricate the folks who over-drove their tires. The main thing is just to slow down, and the next most important is to only do 1 input at a time (throttle, steering or brakes ~ you only use 1).

AWD/4wd is a massive help, but gets more people INTO trouble than Out of trouble when the roads get slick. Over-confident that since they can get moving from a stop, they'll be able to turn or brake equally as well... and it just doesn't work out that way. Especially when you put those slick roads in spots where roads are rarely slick...
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Old 02-19-2021, 02:39 PM #19
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Thanks for this Bad Luck. I've read the T-case differences thread a few times and never understood this.

Given this, and since I have an '01, what is the benefit of having the drive shafts spin at different speeds?

Thanks BL and jgue467 for your comments on this topic.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck View Post
You're pretty close. When in 4HI (not locked) the transfer case acts like a limited slip differential and allows the front and rear driveshaft to spin at different rates while still applying torque to the front and rear driveshafts. I haven't found any technical data from toyota on what the torque split is, but my guess is 30/70 front/rear split.

When 4HI Locked is engaged it locks the front and rear driveshafts together forcing them to spin at the same speed regardless of traction. Essentially the same as when 4wd is engaged in a normal j shift transfer case.
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Old 02-19-2021, 02:58 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddielasvegas View Post
Thanks for this Bad Luck. I've read the T-case differences thread a few times and never understood this.

Given this, and since I have an '01, what is the benefit of having the drive shafts spin at different speeds?

Thanks BL and jgue467 for your comments on this topic.


Eddie

I join in on that question also. I totally understood my 2000 with the jcase and rear locker, drove that for 5 years in heavy snow and ice.
Now my 2001 im still not sure when to lock the center diff. Im driving in snow and ice all the time ( Novemeber to April) and guess im just in AWD ? Guess I use it when IM slipping, but havent had that issue yet as I drive smart.
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Old 02-19-2021, 03:20 PM #21
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It seems like toyota using the words "diff lock" regarding the tcase causes a lot confusion for some people. I bet if you asked some which is more capable off road, a 2001 with a diff lock, or a 97 with a diff lock, they would consider them equally capable, because they both "have lockers". It would have been much clearer if they had only referred to these things as having a AWD mode and a 4x4 mode.
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Old 02-19-2021, 07:17 PM #22
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I've spent a decent amount of time in snow, I don't live it in but I play in it. Tires mean more than locked/unlocked or 2WD/4WD. I used to have some A/T tires and they were good in the snow, very confident going and stopping. Terrible in the rain! I changed the tires to H/T and they are awesome in the rain but absolutely terrible in the snow! That might be why some people say "lockers suck".

I have an LSD in the rear, for reference.
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Old 02-19-2021, 09:54 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3bears View Post
I join in on that question also. I totally understood my 2000 with the jcase and rear locker, drove that for 5 years in heavy snow and ice.
Now my 2001 im still not sure when to lock the center diff. Im driving in snow and ice all the time ( Novemeber to April) and guess im just in AWD ? Guess I use it when IM slipping, but havent had that issue yet as I drive smart.
When you are in 4WD, with all shafts spinning the same speed, both axles spin at the same rate, so if one breaks traction there's no torque split, no slipping anywhere that allows the other axle to compensate.

In AWD (Transfer Case OPEN), the axles and spin at different speeds, so say if you give it too much throttle and lose the rear, the front may keep traction and keep pulling you out of the mess you're in, whereas in 4WD once you start gaining wheel speed it'll just keep going and break traction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenightman
It seems like toyota using the words "diff lock" regarding the tcase causes a lot confusion for some people. I bet if you asked some which is more capable off road, a 2001 with a diff lock, or a 97 with a diff lock, they would consider them equally capable, because they both "have lockers". It would have been much clearer if they had only referred to these things as having a AWD mode and a 4x4 mode.
Toyota calls it a multi-mode transfer case, not a locking center differential. The confusion is generated by owners hoping that they have something special and dealers advertising it as some kind of feature.

To be clear if I wasn't already, my gripe is that a lot of multi-mode owners, especially 01-02 guys for some reason, act like it's some rare thing or list it when they talk about their their trucks (I have an 02 with Center Locking Diff). All of the 4WD trucks in 01-02 came with it. It's literally part of the design. You couldn't buy one without it. They didn't make any with out it. It's literally the exact same transfer case as what came on the 99-00 Limited, they just moved a couple of buttons (and probably changed the 4WD comp and harness if we're being fair). The shift actuator, to my knowledge, is the only thing that changes between the two year ranges mechanically.

This isn't aimed at anyone, it just annoys me.
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Old 02-20-2021, 12:12 AM #24
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When you are in 4WD, with all shafts spinning the same speed, both axles spin at the same rate, so if one breaks traction there's no torque split, no slipping anywhere that allows the other axle to compensate.

In AWD (Transfer Case OPEN), the axles and spin at different speeds, so say if you give it too much throttle and lose the rear, the front may keep traction and keep pulling you out of the mess you're in, whereas in 4WD once you start gaining wheel speed it'll just keep going and break traction.
Maybe I'm just misinterpreting what you are saying, but isn't it the opposite? For more advanced cars where the center differential is basically a limited slip, it limits the amount of slippage, and in really advanced cars with variable slip that's controlled by the car's computer, it works to shift power to what ever set of wheels that has traction. The the 4runner has an old fashioned center differential that basically an open differential in AWD so if both back tires start to slip, all the power is going to go to the rear and none to the front. With the center differential in 4wd, the front and back need to spin at the same rate, so even if both back lose traction, as long as the fronts have traction, you will still move since power is going to them. I think in normal snow driving, its best to drive in AWD since when going around corners, the open center differential allows the front and rear to move at different speeds, which is good since they go through turns at different radius and it allows the tires to not need to break traction. In 4wd, when going around corners, one of 4 tires is going to have to loose traction by either going faster or slower than the surface it is on since front and back sets of tires need to go at different speeds and one tire is going to have to compensate for that difference. That means you will have only 3/4 the traction as normal. That is also why you don't want to drive in 4wd on dry pavement since you basically will be dragging one tire on every corner.

I have a bmw m3 with a limited slip rear differential and in the snow, with snow tires its crazy good climbing snow covered hills if I'm going in a straight line, but once you go around any slight corner, the limited slip differential turns into a locked rear differential since the traction from the snow isn't enough to allow the tires to move at different rates so it basically drags one tire and you end up just with one tire with traction and it really struggles and the back end has a tendency to slides around. Not exactly the same, but similar concept
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Old 02-20-2021, 12:34 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmppdx View Post
Maybe I'm just misinterpreting what you are saying, but isn't it the opposite? For more advanced cars where the center differential is basically a limited slip, it limits the amount of slippage, and in really advanced cars with variable slip that's controlled by the car's computer, it works to shift power to what ever set of wheels that has traction. The the 4runner has an old fashioned center differential that basically an open differential in AWD so if both back tires start to slip, all the power is going to go to the rear and none to the front. With the center differential in 4wd, the front and back need to spin at the same rate, so even if both back lose traction, as long as the fronts have traction, you will still move since power is going to them. I think in normal snow driving, its best to drive in AWD since when going around corners, the open center differential allows the front and rear to move at different speeds, which is good since they go through turns at different radius and it allows the tires to not need to break traction. In 4wd, when going around corners, one of 4 tires is going to have to loose traction by either going faster or slower than the surface it is on since front and back sets of tires need to go at different speeds and one tire is going to have to compensate for that difference. That means you will have only 3/4 the traction as normal. That is also why you don't want to drive in 4wd on dry pavement since you basically will be dragging one tire on every corner.

I have a bmw m3 with a limited slip rear differential and in the snow, with snow tires its crazy good climbing snow covered hills if I'm going in a straight line, but once you go around any slight corner, the limited slip differential turns into a locked rear differential since the traction from the snow isn't enough to allow the tires to move at different rates so it basically drags one tire and you end up just with one tire with traction and it really struggles and the back end has a tendency to slides around. Not exactly the same, but similar concept
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Old 02-20-2021, 08:54 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cree View Post

Toyota calls it a multi-mode transfer case, not a locking center differential. The confusion is generated by owners hoping that they have something special and dealers advertising it as some kind of feature.

To be clear if I wasn't already, my gripe is that a lot of multi-mode owners, especially 01-02 guys for some reason, act like it's some rare thing or list it when they talk about their their trucks (I have an 02 with Center Locking Diff). All of the 4WD trucks in 01-02 came with it. It's literally part of the design. You couldn't buy one without it. They didn't make any with out it. It's literally the exact same transfer case as what came on the 99-00 Limited, they just moved a couple of buttons (and probably changed the 4WD comp and harness if we're being fair). The shift actuator, to my knowledge, is the only thing that changes between the two year ranges mechanically.

This isn't aimed at anyone, it just annoys me.
My gripe is essentially the same. Really, just my opinion, the '01-'02 are less cool (and obviously less capable) then the 00' and earlier, because the earlier subgens have the option of an actual locker. If you want an AWD case you can get a '00 or '99 limited, and a locker.

When the center is locked, it becomes as good as a normal tcase, not better.

If a center diff is where it's at, then why does everyone swap in a locking diff in the axles, and almost nobody swaps In an AWD system?
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Old 02-22-2021, 08:25 AM #27
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Whoever said the center diff lock sucks is an idiot who doesn't know how drivetrains work. 4HI unlocked is the ideal mode for those conditions. Lock the center diff for the trickier stuff and you are golden.
Same. I was driving everywhere on the snow and mixed conditions around DFW all week. The "AWD" mode was great for this last weekend. I was lucky to put 4Season tires on the week prior to the snow moving in. Between the 4Runner and the tires I was having no problems getting around.
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Old 02-22-2021, 10:24 AM #28
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...... not a locking center differential. The confusion is generated by owners hoping that they have something special..

It is a locking center diff, locks front to rear axles, is this Not True? Sure the front/rear wheels are not locked to each other on each axle, 2 more locking diffs is Better than the one center, of course it is! Would I like them, sure, do I need them? Not really. No rock crawler here but alot of sand, dirt, mud, small rock, cactus and so forth which is just as much fun to me anyway.

No one, not one soul on here said it is Special.

What I said and will continue to say is very, very simple.

It works in all My conditions despite what others have experienced, maybe something is wrong with theirs? Who know, who really cares, right?

We all have some special, its called a 3rd gen 4runner, can we agree on that?
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Old 02-22-2021, 12:32 PM #29
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Originally Posted by eddielasvegas View Post
Thanks for this Bad Luck. I've read the T-case differences thread a few times and never understood this.

Given this, and since I have an '01, what is the benefit of having the drive shafts spin at different speeds?

Thanks BL and jgue467 for your comments on this topic.


Eddie
I'm late to the party, but the benefit of having the front and rear driveshafts spin at different speeds is for driving in mixed road conditions like raining or snow/ice with patches of pavement. It allows for you to not bind up the transfer case when you have good traction (which would happen if you drive it in 4HI locked on good traction surfaces like a dry street) but still allows the front axle to assist in moving the vehicle in slick conditions when the rear axle loses traction. It's a middle ground between 2wd and 4wd in a traditional transfer case.

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Originally Posted by 3bears View Post
I join in on that question also. I totally understood my 2000 with the jcase and rear locker, drove that for 5 years in heavy snow and ice.
Now my 2001 im still not sure when to lock the center diff. Im driving in snow and ice all the time ( Novemeber to April) and guess im just in AWD ? Guess I use it when IM slipping, but havent had that issue yet as I drive smart.
4HI/AWD should be used when there is a chance of low traction or mixed traction driving conditions. 4HI locked (center diff locked) should be used when there is low traction. If you drive in 4HI locked on a good traction surface it will bind the transfer case up when turning and has a good chance of causing transfer case problems

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Originally Posted by thenightman View Post
It seems like toyota using the words "diff lock" regarding the tcase causes a lot confusion for some people. I bet if you asked some which is more capable off road, a 2001 with a diff lock, or a 97 with a diff lock, they would consider them equally capable, because they both "have lockers". It would have been much clearer if they had only referred to these things as having a AWD mode and a 4x4 mode.
2001 with a diff lock is the center diff lock for the transfer case.
1997 with a diff lock is the rear diff lock. Much more capable than the 2001 that never came factory with a rear locker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dmppdx View Post
The the 4runner has an old fashioned center differential that basically an open differential in AWD so if both back tires start to slip, all the power is going to go to the rear and none to the front.
There is a power/torque split between the front and rear when in 4HI unlocked (AWD) that will send power to the axle with more traction. It will not send all the power to the axle with the least resistance. It more of functions as a limited slip differential than an open differential.
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Old 02-22-2021, 12:41 PM #30
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We just had a unusually big winter blast for our area. Having driven both my wife's Range Rover and my 3rd gen in it, I continue to rate our 4runners nothing short of spectacular on snow.

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Best Way To Drive In Snow? david 4th Gen T4Rs 23 12-14-2003 03:28 AM

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