10-15-2021, 08:29 PM
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#1
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Brake Issues With TBU
So I've done a good amount of research and can't find a lot of information on the issue that I'm having. I'm wondering if anyone else has ran into this. The brakes work and will stop the truck, but not very efficiently. I cannot get the pedal to be firm. It is soft for about the first half a travel then semi-firm. The brakes will stop and the truck will not start rolling with the brakes applied. The pedal does seem to slightly sink though. It feels like I am not getting enough hydraulic pressure to the front in all honesty. The master cylinder has been replaced and has less than 1000 miles on it. I used a new Aisin master. Both front and the rear rubber lines have been replaced with braided Steel. The rear brakes are all 100% brand new including the wheel cylinders. The front brakes have less than 1000 miles on it. I have the Tundra 13WL calipers and Power Stop drilled/slotted rotors with the Z34 heavy duty pads. I have bled the system multiple times and I am positive that there is no air in it. I have been told that with the Tundra calipers the stock master cylinder cannot push enough fluid to push the caliper Pistons enough which would cause my issue. But I also have read multiple threads of people running this brake setup and having no issues at all. In fact I read that a lot of people notice their truck stops a lot better than stock. Just wondering if anybody has had this similar issue with the Tundra brakes? Or maybe should I switch out the master cylinder with an OEM one? I have been recommended to remove the Tundra set up and go back to stock brakes. I would like to keep this setup if I can get a firm brake pedal. Truck is a 97 Limited 4x4. Any input it is appreciated!
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97 4Runner Limited, Desert Dune with Rear Locker
OME 881/891 springs with Bilstein 5100 shocks
Goodyear Duratracs LT265/75R16
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10-15-2021, 09:08 PM
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#2
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I Use the other Tundra brake calipers 13WE not the 13WL as those are a much larger calipers and seem to be spongy because the volume of fluid is different.
My build thread has the comparison between the stock 13WE as they are the closest to the OEM stocks. The larger calipers[13WL] will not fit alot of stock 16 inch rims. Startin around post #335.
I am very happy with my 13WE tundra calipers. Work just the same or better then. The stock oem and my pedal seems the same.
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Last edited by brillo_76; 10-15-2021 at 09:13 PM.
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10-15-2021, 09:13 PM
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#3
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You probably don’t have all the air out of your system, try activating the abs on a gravel road several times and bleeding the brakes again. I know the larger tundra calipers are known for a softer pedal but you shouldn’t have reduced braking performance. Since the master cylinder was replaced there is almost certainly air in the abs pump if you haven’t activated it before bleeding the brakes
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10-15-2021, 09:30 PM
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#4
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Real Name: Drew
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brillo_76
I Use the other Tundra brake calipers 13WE not the 13WL as those are a much larger calipers and seem to be spongy because the volume of fluid is different.
My build thread has the comparison between the stock 13WE as they are the closest to the OEM stocks. The larger calipers[13WL] will not fit alot of stock 16 inch rims. Startin around post #335.
I am very happy with my 13WE tundra calipers. Work just the same or better then. The stock oem and my pedal seems the same.
Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk
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How much bigger are the 13WE calipers over the stock Limited calipers? If I swapped to those from the 13WL, I'm guessing I'll need new pads, but will the rotors still work? Also, I saw on RockAuto a 13WG caliper. Is this a different one, or did they miss-print 13WE?
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97 4Runner Limited, Desert Dune with Rear Locker
OME 881/891 springs with Bilstein 5100 shocks
Goodyear Duratracs LT265/75R16
Last edited by DrewZ28; 10-15-2021 at 10:03 PM.
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10-15-2021, 09:33 PM
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#5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyBobandy
You probably don’t have all the air out of your system, try activating the abs on a gravel road several times and bleeding the brakes again. I know the larger tundra calipers are known for a softer pedal but you shouldn’t have reduced braking performance. Since the master cylinder was replaced there is almost certainly air in the abs pump if you haven’t activated it before bleeding the brakes
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I have before will no difference, but maybe I'll try it again. Not sure why that needs done on these trucks, but not other vehicles?
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97 4Runner Limited, Desert Dune with Rear Locker
OME 881/891 springs with Bilstein 5100 shocks
Goodyear Duratracs LT265/75R16
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10-15-2021, 10:24 PM
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#6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewZ28
How much bigger are the 13WE calipers over the stock Limited calipers? If I swapped to those from the 13WL, I'm guessing I'll need new pads, but will the rotors still work? Also, I saw on RockAuto a 13WG caliper. Is this a different one, or did they miss-print 13WE?
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They use thicker rotors then OEM. Same diameter as the stock 199mm as your rotors are probably 231mm.
They are I believe the same size as stock just accept a lot wider then stock rotor. Look at my build thread for comparison as I have photos showing the rotors and calipers from stock and my replacement 13WE.
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7 3rd gens listed in the build thread (2 are parts mobiles)
Build Thread: https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...os-builds.html
Brillo's Bucket Fluid Ex changer: https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...ml#post3358086
Sparks Plugs Wire and Coil Information: https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...on-5vz-fe.html
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10-16-2021, 12:03 AM
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#7
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You may find this thread helpful. I personally choose the 13WE because there were less reported ABS issues. It doesn't exactly discuss soft pedal issues, but I assume there is a correlation.
231mm / 199mm Tundra Brake Upgrade ABS Function Survey
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10-16-2021, 02:35 AM
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#8
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Let me make sure I got this straight. Being a Limited I had the larger 4Runner brakes to start. Upgrading to the 13WE Tundra brakes keeps the same size pads and same diameter rotor, but takes a thicker rotor which helps resist warping. The brake pedal and ABS still feel and act as stock. Upgrading to the 13WL Tundra brakes use the same rotor as the 13WE calipers, but adds larger (longer) pads. But being a larger caliper, they hold more fluid, which makes the pedal feel soft and can mess with the ABS operation. Is this all correct?
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97 4Runner Limited, Desert Dune with Rear Locker
OME 881/891 springs with Bilstein 5100 shocks
Goodyear Duratracs LT265/75R16
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10-16-2021, 08:02 AM
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#9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewZ28
Let me make sure I got this straight. Being a Limited I had the larger 4Runner brakes to start. Upgrading to the 13WE Tundra brakes keeps the same size pads and same diameter rotor, but takes a thicker rotor which helps resist warping. The brake pedal and ABS still feel and act as stock. Upgrading to the 13WL Tundra brakes use the same rotor as the 13WE calipers, but adds larger (longer) pads. But being a larger caliper, they hold more fluid, which makes the pedal feel soft and can mess with the ABS operation. Is this all correct?
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13WE and 13 WL calipers have the same piston size so there will be no change as long as nothing else changes in the brake system. Both calipers use the same rebuild kit. The brake pad backing plates for the two are different sizes, but the brake pad material is roughly the same foot print between the two. TBU 231mm vs. 199mm Pad Size
EDIT: To further elaborate why your pedal feels the way it does, your master cylinder is putting out the same volume but the brake caliper pistons are larger so they require more fluid to move the same distance as a smaller brake piston would. This results in a further brake pedal travel and less foot pedal effort. The textbook correct way to do this upgrade would be to get a larger master cylinder as well which some people have done, but it requires a lot of work to either find a compatible/bolt on master cylinder or make an entirely different one work by either changing the booster and/or deleting ABS.
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Last edited by Bad Luck; 10-16-2021 at 08:05 AM.
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10-16-2021, 01:05 PM
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#10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck
13WE and 13 WL calipers have the same piston size so there will be no change as long as nothing else changes in the brake system. Both calipers use the same rebuild kit. The brake pad backing plates for the two are different sizes, but the brake pad material is roughly the same foot print between the two. TBU 231mm vs. 199mm Pad Size
EDIT: To further elaborate why your pedal feels the way it does, your master cylinder is putting out the same volume but the brake caliper pistons are larger so they require more fluid to move the same distance as a smaller brake piston would. This results in a further brake pedal travel and less foot pedal effort. The textbook correct way to do this upgrade would be to get a larger master cylinder as well which some people have done, but it requires a lot of work to either find a compatible/bolt on master cylinder or make an entirely different one work by either changing the booster and/or deleting ABS.
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From what I have read and researched if you don't want to upgrade your master cylinder keep your abs and same pedal feel. You use the stock or the 13WE calipers only. The main reason everyone upgrades to to eliminate the rotor warping on stock.
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7 3rd gens listed in the build thread (2 are parts mobiles)
Build Thread: https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...os-builds.html
Brillo's Bucket Fluid Ex changer: https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...ml#post3358086
Sparks Plugs Wire and Coil Information: https://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...on-5vz-fe.html
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10-16-2021, 01:34 PM
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#11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brillo_76
From what I have read and researched if you don't want to upgrade your master cylinder keep your abs and same pedal feel. You use the stock or the 13WE calipers only. The main reason everyone upgrades to to eliminate the rotor warping on stock.
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13WE pistons are larger than stock and the same size as 13WL pistons so the pedal will feel the same between the two.
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10-16-2021, 03:51 PM
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#12
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Join Date: Jul 2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Luck
13WE pistons are larger than stock and the same size as 13WL pistons so the pedal will feel the same between the two.
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With the overall size of the caliper being different, won't the 13WL caliper take more fluid than the 13WE? At least this is the conclusion I've come to with my research.
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OME 881/891 springs with Bilstein 5100 shocks
Goodyear Duratracs LT265/75R16
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10-18-2021, 08:42 AM
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#13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewZ28
With the overall size of the caliper being different, won't the 13WL caliper take more fluid than the 13WE? At least this is the conclusion I've come to with my research.
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The volume to fill the caliper will be different, but once you've bled the system and removed all air it doesn't matter. When you press the brake pedal the only moving parts in the hydraulic system are the master cylinder (volume input) and the brake caliper pistons/wheel cylinders (volume output). As long as the caliper pistons are the same size between the two calipers it doesn't matter how much volume it takes to fill the calipers.
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10-19-2021, 09:51 AM
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#15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brillo_76
Hmm. Mine feels the same as stock. No soft pedal. Aren't the 13WL longer calipers using the 231mm rotors?
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The 13WL calipers are larger than the 13WE, but they both use the same tundra/sequoia rotors. 13WL calipers require more fluid to fill the caliper when bleeding all the air out after installation, but once you bleed all the air out the hydraulic side of the brake system only cares about the caliper piston size because the caliper piston is the only moving hydraulic part in the caliper causing a change in fluid volume.
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