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Old 11-30-2021, 07:07 PM #31
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Originally Posted by Bad Luck View Post
I ALWAYS recommend that people with larger than OEM tires or higher capacity rated tires (LT or load range D/E/F) chalk test their tires to find the best psi for full engagement across the tread blocks.
I've been meaning to do this, even have the box of chalk out! Thanks for the reminder!
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:13 PM #32
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Option01, in the Sierras around Bridgeport around 7-8k ft or so my hill climbing is absolutely atrocious and I've been trying to decide how to fix it. I've considered re-gearing, charging, etc. I also researched recently that URD has a MAF sensor calibrator to trick the ECU of how much air is coming in. I haven't bought or tried yet, but my theory is that the truck's AFR is off at that altitude and with this calibrator it *might* get everything back into equilibrium. It's a spitball theory, but I'm planning on trying it before starting the camping season next year.
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Old 11-30-2021, 07:33 PM #33
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Originally Posted by jeff88 View Post
Option01, in the Sierras around Bridgeport around 7-8k ft or so my hill climbing is absolutely atrocious and I've been trying to decide how to fix it. I've considered re-gearing, charging, etc. I also researched recently that URD has a MAF sensor calibrator to trick the ECU of how much air is coming in. I haven't bought or tried yet, but my theory is that the truck's AFR is off at that altitude and with this calibrator it *might* get everything back into equilibrium. It's a spitball theory, but I'm planning on trying it before starting the camping season next year.
Interesting idea! I hope you'll share your experiences here if you go that route. No matter what gearing I go with, something that helps with altitude would still be a great addition.
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Old 11-30-2021, 08:45 PM #34
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Originally Posted by Cree View Post
Actually I'm wrong. I did my calculations off stock 15s. 4.88s would give you 4.55s on 285s. 4.56 would be a 4.25.

I use this site.... TireSize.com - Compare Tire Sizes, Specs, Prices & more
Interesting! So going with a 4.56 gear ratio on my 285 tires would be roughly equivalent to the stock 265 tires with the 4.30 ratio commonly found on the stock lockers. Or at least equivalent if you ignore the extra weight and friction of the 285's lol.
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Old 11-30-2021, 09:04 PM #35
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I went through this exact situation a couple years ago. I have added weight, winch, sliders, rack, skids. Hills or a head wind would kill any power I had. I too would travel 2-4 hours on highway to get to trails and camping. I started out with 255/85/16 and now I'm at 285/75/16. I decided with 4.88 which I'm glad I went with, but the truth is, these runners just dont have the power to go up every hill with ease. I'm even supercharged with smaller pulley, 7th injector and I have times that i kick it out of over drive on long steep climbs. Dont think that gearing is going to solve all the problems. It can help in certain situations. I run around 2600/2650 rpm at 70 on speedo which is 74ish on gps. 4.56 and 4.88 rpm difference is not very much, I dont even give a second thought nowadays of the higher rpms.

Seriously consider the weight of the tires you are getting. Load E is great in all, but is it overkill for what you are doing? Even load E tires of the same size between brands can differ 5+ pounds per tire. Just realize that adding all this weight and size increase is going to make your runner slower. I found it was better to take it a little slower and stay out of over drive for a lot of the climbs. Overdrive kept on during steep climbs increases my transmission temps very quickly. As good practice I dont let the tranny searching for gears by turning overdrive off.

If i had to do it again, I'd kept the 4.88s and only installed a rear locker and not on both axles. In fact if I had to do it all over again, I'd probably get a gx 460/470 with a V8. I love my 3rd gen, but I've always been underwhelmed with the power and that's just having too high of expectations, it's a 90's V6 engine. Curious if you are going to lock the front and rear when you regear?

Edit: just to be clear, I'm in altitude that ranges 4000-10000 ft often on my trips so that also contributes to less power.
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Old 11-30-2021, 10:28 PM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toy2play View Post
I went through this exact situation a couple years ago. I have added weight, winch, sliders, rack, skids. Hills or a head wind would kill any power I had. I too would travel 2-4 hours on highway to get to trails and camping. I started out with 255/85/16 and now I'm at 285/75/16. I decided with 4.88 which I'm glad I went with, but the truth is, these runners just dont have the power to go up every hill with ease. I'm even supercharged with smaller pulley, 7th injector and I have times that i kick it out of over drive on long steep climbs. Dont think that gearing is going to solve all the problems. It can help in certain situations. I run around 2600/2650 rpm at 70 on speedo which is 74ish on gps. 4.56 and 4.88 rpm difference is not very much, I dont even give a second thought nowadays of the higher rpms.

Seriously consider the weight of the tires you are getting. Load E is great in all, but is it overkill for what you are doing? Even load E tires of the same size between brands can differ 5+ pounds per tire. Just realize that adding all this weight and size increase is going to make your runner slower. I found it was better to take it a little slower and stay out of over drive for a lot of the climbs. Overdrive kept on during steep climbs increases my transmission temps very quickly. As good practice I dont let the tranny searching for gears by turning overdrive off.

If i had to do it again, I'd kept the 4.88s and only installed a rear locker and not on both axles. In fact if I had to do it all over again, I'd probably get a gx 460/470 with a V8. I love my 3rd gen, but I've always been underwhelmed with the power and that's just having too high of expectations, it's a 90's V6 engine. Curious if you are going to lock the front and rear when you regear?

Edit: just to be clear, I'm in altitude that ranges 4000-10000 ft often on my trips so that also contributes to less power.
Wow, thank you for sharing your experience/insights in detail! Hearing how much you've done to increase power and that you're still not fully satisfied is good for me to hear so that I set appropriate expectations regarding any future mods. As far as my expectations for re-gearing, extra power was one motivation but I was also interested in reducing strain on the drivetrain and taking the opportunity to add lockers. Sounds like the difference between 4.56 and 4.88 is not that big from any metric so while re-gearing is expensive, I'll probably be fine with either option so I shouldn't stress out too much.

Your post has also reinforced something that came up a little earlier. No matter which gear ratio I go with, I'll probably need to keep the truck in 3rd when going into the mountains both for power and for the good of the transmission (good to know that 4th spikes the temps in that scenario). And if I am going to be in 3rd all of the way up, maybe I should go with the 4.56 ratio so that I'm at 2800-3300rpm rather than the 3000-3500rpm I'd get with the 4.88. As far as altitude is concerned, our adventures pretty much always take us to the 4,000 - 6,000' elevation and my truck theoretically weighs a bit less since I don't have a winch nor aftermarket skids so those two factors might also help me get by with the 4.56 ratio.

I already have the larger tires (Duratec 285/75R/16) and according to the Goodyear website, they weigh 55lbs each. My understanding was that these were on the lighter side for E tires but I'm certainly no expert on that. You're probably right that they might be overkill but a friend had them on his 3rd gen and basically never got stuck when we'd go wheeling in the snow. I guess I just got them stuck in my mind as what I wanted without doing enough research lol.

To answer your question. I was planning to lock both the front and rear. Initially, I was mostly interested in doing the rear only but adding a locker to the front during a re-gear just seemed like an obvious choice since I had the budget for it. I'm curious why you'd skip the front locker if you had to do it again? I know the fronts are kind of weak but I don't expect that I'd use it very often and would go extra easy on it. Or was there some other reason?
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Old 11-30-2021, 10:38 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Option01 View Post
First off, howdy neighbor! (I live in Fair Oaks)

Yeah, that's good advice about being careful regarding the 5-speed vs automatic. I think some of my early concerns about 4.88 came from old posts that were talking about 5-speeds and/or 4 cylinder motors. That's part of the reason I started a new thread: to try to get input specific for my vehicle/usage.

I think you're right about the stock gearing and almost wonder if the drivetrain was dialed in based on the base 28" wheel size even though most 3rd gens seems to have been sold with the 31" option. Or maybe it was done that way to help it score a little better fuel efficiency for the window sticker.

Wow, 5.29 on stock tires! That's going to be pretty aggressive. I assume you won't be using your 4Runner much on the freeway?
This is the 4Runner mecca of Norcal for sure. Lots and lots of us around here!

I do plan to still drive it on freeways. I had a custom exhaust done a few years ago and it is pretty loud around 2000-2200 RPM. Increasing the RPM will actually make it quieter... and yes, the goal is aggressive. I hope to get this sucker on a 1/4 mile track when it's all done.
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Old 11-30-2021, 11:44 PM #38
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Originally Posted by Option01 View Post
Wow, thank you for sharing your experience/insights in detail! Hearing how much you've done to increase power and that you're still not fully satisfied is good for me to hear so that I set appropriate expectations regarding any future mods. As far as my expectations for re-gearing, extra power was one motivation but I was also interested in reducing strain on the drivetrain and taking the opportunity to add lockers. Sounds like the difference between 4.56 and 4.88 is not that big from any metric so while re-gearing is expensive, I'll probably be fine with either option so I shouldn't stress out too much.

Your post has also reinforced something that came up a little earlier. No matter which gear ratio I go with, I'll probably need to keep the truck in 3rd when going into the mountains both for power and for the good of the transmission (good to know that 4th spikes the temps in that scenario). And if I am going to be in 3rd all of the way up, maybe I should go with the 4.56 ratio so that I'm at 2800-3300rpm rather than the 3000-3500rpm I'd get with the 4.88. As far as altitude is concerned, our adventures pretty much always take us to the 4,000 - 6,000' elevation and my truck theoretically weighs a bit less since I don't have a winch nor aftermarket skids so those two factors might also help me get by with the 4.56 ratio.

I already have the larger tires (Duratec 285/75R/16) and according to the Goodyear website, they weigh 55lbs each. My understanding was that these were on the lighter side for E tires but I'm certainly no expert on that. You're probably right that they might be overkill but a friend had them on his 3rd gen and basically never got stuck when we'd go wheeling in the snow. I guess I just got them stuck in my mind as what I wanted without doing enough research lol.

To answer your question. I was planning to lock both the front and rear. Initially, I was mostly interested in doing the rear only but adding a locker to the front during a re-gear just seemed like an obvious choice since I had the budget for it. I'm curious why you'd skip the front locker if you had to do it again? I know the fronts are kind of weak but I don't expect that I'd use it very often and would go extra easy on it. Or was there some other reason?
I wouldnt be too concerned about the higher rpm in 3rd gear for shorter period of times. It's not going to make much of a difference on wear. These engines can easily take it. I'm pretty sure I would have been disappointed with 4.56 gears.

I was in the same situation when upgrading gears, while I'm in there, I'll just throw in a front locker at the same time and be duel locked for those situations where I will need one. Well that day never really happened. It's purely subjective and in my case there wasn't any need for a front locker. These rigs are capable with a rear locker and honestly I dont put myself in situations where I need to be double locked since I solo overland most times and it's not the ideal situation to grenade the front end in the middle of nowhere. IFS doesn't play nice with a locked front if you are not careful. Hell, when I lock my front, going straight and turn slightly on dirt road you can feel the tension in the front end. You can accomplish a lot with a open diff or just a rear locker. If you are doing a lot of wheeling right now and consistantly getting stuck with open diffs, then I can see improving your rig by adding lockers to get you further down the trail. I never hit the limitations of my driving with a rear locker, even most of the time with open diffs.

I read multiple threads on being fully locked and most of them basically said the same thing, but I was wanting it and I tried justifying it. I suppose that's how you gain experience. At least I know that I dont need a front locker to support my needs now, though it was an expensive lesson which that could have gone into other upgrades. Your needs may be different though that warrant a front locker.

Skid plates/sliders/bumpers have saved my bacon more than my lockers.
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Old 11-30-2021, 11:57 PM #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff88 View Post
Option01, in the Sierras around Bridgeport around 7-8k ft or so my hill climbing is absolutely atrocious and I've been trying to decide how to fix it. I've considered re-gearing, charging, etc. I also researched recently that URD has a MAF sensor calibrator to trick the ECU of how much air is coming in. I haven't bought or tried yet, but my theory is that the truck's AFR is off at that altitude and with this calibrator it *might* get everything back into equilibrium. It's a spitball theory, but I'm planning on trying it before starting the camping season next year.
The MAF sensor calibrator unfortunately won't gain a whole lot of power. You might be able to richen a little bit to gain power while stock but it's not going to blow your socks off. I have a MAF sensor calibrator that I use on my engine but it's supercharged. The real culprit is atmospheric pressure and the lack of oxygen. At sea level, that's 14.7 PSI. At 8000 ft, it's only 10.9 PSI! That's a whole lot less oxygen in your engine making it much slower. Add 500 lbs of people and gear and it's getting even slower. Not much to be done about that.
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Old 12-01-2021, 09:12 AM #40
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Originally Posted by Toy2play View Post
I wouldnt be too concerned about the higher rpm in 3rd gear for shorter period of times. It's not going to make much of a difference on wear. These engines can easily take it. I'm pretty sure I would have been disappointed with 4.56 gears.

I was in the same situation when upgrading gears, while I'm in there, I'll just throw in a front locker at the same time and be duel locked for those situations where I will need one. Well that day never really happened. It's purely subjective and in my case there wasn't any need for a front locker. These rigs are capable with a rear locker and honestly I dont put myself in situations where I need to be double locked since I solo overland most times and it's not the ideal situation to grenade the front end in the middle of nowhere. IFS doesn't play nice with a locked front if you are not careful. Hell, when I lock my front, going straight and turn slightly on dirt road you can feel the tension in the front end. You can accomplish a lot with a open diff or just a rear locker. If you are doing a lot of wheeling right now and consistantly getting stuck with open diffs, then I can see improving your rig by adding lockers to get you further down the trail. I never hit the limitations of my driving with a rear locker, even most of the time with open diffs.

I read multiple threads on being fully locked and most of them basically said the same thing, but I was wanting it and I tried justifying it. I suppose that's how you gain experience. At least I know that I dont need a front locker to support my needs now, though it was an expensive lesson which that could have gone into other upgrades. Your needs may be different though that warrant a front locker.

Skid plates/sliders/bumpers have saved my bacon more than my lockers.
Limited slip in the front is also a good compromise...
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Old 12-01-2021, 12:29 PM #41
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Originally Posted by gamefreakgc View Post
The MAF sensor calibrator unfortunately won't gain a whole lot of power. You might be able to richen a little bit to gain power while stock but it's not going to blow your socks off. I have a MAF sensor calibrator that I use on my engine but it's supercharged. The real culprit is atmospheric pressure and the lack of oxygen. At sea level, that's 14.7 PSI. At 8000 ft, it's only 10.9 PSI! That's a whole lot less oxygen in your engine making it much slower. Add 500 lbs of people and gear and it's getting even slower. Not much to be done about that.
I'm not expecting a 10 second car out of the calibrator just trying to be able to get up a damn hill!
Seriously though, if I can just get a little more power so the trans isn't hunting all the time then it's a mod worth every penny to me. Plus I figure if I get a charger one day I'll need the calibrator anyway so it's one less thing to buy at that point if I already have it.
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Old 12-01-2021, 04:00 PM #42
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Originally Posted by Toy2play View Post
I wouldnt be too concerned about the higher rpm in 3rd gear for shorter period of times. It's not going to make much of a difference on wear. These engines can easily take it. I'm pretty sure I would have been disappointed with 4.56 gears.

I was in the same situation when upgrading gears, while I'm in there, I'll just throw in a front locker at the same time and be duel locked for those situations where I will need one. Well that day never really happened. It's purely subjective and in my case there wasn't any need for a front locker. These rigs are capable with a rear locker and honestly I dont put myself in situations where I need to be double locked since I solo overland most times and it's not the ideal situation to grenade the front end in the middle of nowhere. IFS doesn't play nice with a locked front if you are not careful. Hell, when I lock my front, going straight and turn slightly on dirt road you can feel the tension in the front end. You can accomplish a lot with a open diff or just a rear locker. If you are doing a lot of wheeling right now and consistantly getting stuck with open diffs, then I can see improving your rig by adding lockers to get you further down the trail. I never hit the limitations of my driving with a rear locker, even most of the time with open diffs.

I read multiple threads on being fully locked and most of them basically said the same thing, but I was wanting it and I tried justifying it. I suppose that's how you gain experience. At least I know that I dont need a front locker to support my needs now, though it was an expensive lesson which that could have gone into other upgrades. Your needs may be different though that warrant a front locker.

Skid plates/sliders/bumpers have saved my bacon more than my lockers.
Well, no offense but if you've got the supercharged/pully/injector and are still not satisfied with the performance then I'm not surprised that you would have been disappointed with the 4.56

Honestly, I think I'm overly concerned about high RPMs after driving a 95 Celica GT for 12 years. If you have any experience with the 2.2L 5sfe motor, you know it doesn't love high revs and yet the 5 speed gearing put it a 3000rpm at 65rpm. I did a lot of commuting in that car and was always exhausted upon arrival after the excessive noise/vibration so I guess that makes me a little gun-shy lol.

Regarding the lockers, I see what you're getting at. Having one in the front didn't necessary hurt anything but considering the risk of damage (if used) plus never actually needing it made it feel like a waste of money in hindsight. I agree that with good tires and rear locker, my 4Runner should be very capable but I do use it for overlanding in the snow and I would assume a front locker would be more useful in that situation and would be less stressed. I'm thinking it would help with getting through a difficult section of snow as long as I could do so going straight. I obviously don't want to grenade the front diff but I only do that kind of wheeling in a group so at least I wouldn't be stranded if something catastrophic did occur.
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Old 12-01-2021, 04:24 PM #43
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Originally Posted by JZiggy View Post
Limited slip in the front is also a good compromise...
Its funny because I actually started off planning to do a Truetrac LSD in the front. However, a friend added LSDs to the front and rear of his old Chevy truck as part of a substantial upgrade (big lift, huge tires, converted 2WD to 4WD etc) and once he got stuck in the snow, those LSDs acted like open diffs. Not sure what brand/type he had but my limited understanding is that LSDs need at least a little friction on both wheels to work so if one wheel is lifted or just spinning in slushy snow/ice, the other wheel will get zero power.

As I mentioned above, we do a fair amount of overlanding in the snow so that was my reasoning for doing a front locker. However, none of the guys in our group actually has one so I don't know if it will actually be as useful or as easy on the differential as I'm hoping for that kind of application.
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4.88 Gears, Front/Rear E-Lockers
1" Body Lift, 2" Suspension Lift, 285/75 R16 Tires
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Old 12-01-2021, 04:35 PM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamefreakgc View Post
This is the 4Runner mecca of Norcal for sure. Lots and lots of us around here!

I do plan to still drive it on freeways. I had a custom exhaust done a few years ago and it is pretty loud around 2000-2200 RPM. Increasing the RPM will actually make it quieter... and yes, the goal is aggressive. I hope to get this sucker on a 1/4 mile track when it's all done.
Oh dang! I just saw your signature... 325hp!! I'm curious to hear what kind of quarter mile times you can get with that.
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1999 SR5 V6/Auto 4WD
4.88 Gears, Front/Rear E-Lockers
1" Body Lift, 2" Suspension Lift, 285/75 R16 Tires
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Old 12-02-2021, 12:44 AM #45
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Looking at the power/torque curve of the 5VZ-FE engine, it appears that at 65mph in 4th gear, there is almost no change to torque output when applying my new tires and a 4.88 gear ratio (thanks to the super flat section of the curve at those rpms). Thus, horsepower gets only a minimal increase from roughly 80hp to 85hp.

However, when you look at the same vehicle speed in 3rd gear, there are some much more substantial increases. Torque bumps up from 207 to 218 with the new tires/gears and horsepower jumps from 82 to 100. That's almost 22%!

I see now why so few people go with the 4.56 ratio. With such a flat torque curve, you really need to get those rpms up to generate more power.



**EDIT** Here's a zoomed in version marked up to better illustrate what I'm describing
Untitled
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1999 SR5 V6/Auto 4WD
4.88 Gears, Front/Rear E-Lockers
1" Body Lift, 2" Suspension Lift, 285/75 R16 Tires

Last edited by Option01; 12-02-2021 at 01:02 AM.
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