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Old 10-11-2022, 10:10 PM #76
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This is awesome and interested in seeing how the timing advance plays out. I'm also glad you noticed the fuel trims in relation to the intake. It's a very precise way to see if any intake or exhaust upgrades are actually working. If it's flowing more fuel, that means the engine is getting more air and if you're getting more air, you're getting more power!
Thanks!

If you have the tools, and can use them and observe them and understand them, it's easy to get a lot more performance for less cash outlay. I know the 5VZ-FE responds very well to intake + exhaust mods. Add in a piggyback, a scan tool, some time to dial stuff in and it makes a really big difference.

I'll keep you posted.
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Old 12-12-2022, 10:38 PM #77
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Just to circle back on this: I don't really have much usable data for this. I had a longer trip at the end of November, but my battery died right before the trip, so the ECU was in learn mode for half the trip or so. Also, I don't ever get on the highway unless it's for a road tip. This isn't a daily driver, and when I do drive it to work, it's about a 3 mile trip. Errands around town are similar in distance. At any rate, on the way home from Central Oregon, we hit snow and drove in 4WD for about 30 miles. I got 171 miles out of a half tank of gas by the time we got home. I averaged 16.8 mpg on that tank as I finished it with short drives around town. I'm pretty confident that 300+ miles per tank is doable with long distance driving. That's by the time the light comes on. Tank fills are around 15.5 gallons when the light comes on. It's not on "E" when the light turns on, but slightly above it. I'm certain the sender unit is accurate.

As I drive this thing more on longer trips, I'll update this. We are going to the coast on NYE.
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Old 08-22-2023, 04:21 PM #78
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Thread revival, I know. Tisk-tisk.

8 months ago the conversation about this ended. But I'm curious, has anyone else been using E15 in their 3rd gen? I haven't since I last documented it in my build thread, which I think was sometime late last year. I remember my mileage was decreasing pretty bad so I decided to stop using it as the cost wasn't outweighing the decrease in mileage.

Curious to hear people's experiences and thoughts on this now.
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Old 08-22-2023, 06:34 PM #79
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Originally Posted by JoeT4R View Post
Thread revival, I know. Tisk-tisk.

8 months ago the conversation about this ended. But I'm curious, has anyone else been using E15 in their 3rd gen? I haven't since I last documented it in my build thread, which I think was sometime late last year. I remember my mileage was decreasing pretty bad so I decided to stop using it as the cost wasn't outweighing the decrease in mileage.

Curious to hear people's experiences and thoughts on this now.
Nope. But the cost difference will never outweigh the decrease in milage.

Don't be tempted by the lower initial price of E15. As soon as people lose reference for what a lower ethanol concentration costs, they'll erase the cost savings and pocket the difference.

Ethanol as fuel is a corn lobbied scam built on flawed assumptions that growing corn to burn is sustainable (it's not even close).

I got to try E-free while driving across the country, and it benefit me 4 MPG. So it appears to me that for every 5% of ethanol, I lose 2 MPG.
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Old 08-22-2023, 08:40 PM #80
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Nope. But the cost difference will never outweigh the decrease in milage.



Don't be tempted by the lower initial price of E15. As soon as people lose reference for what a lower ethanol concentration costs, they'll erase the cost savings and pocket the difference.



Ethanol as fuel is a corn lobbied scam built on flawed assumptions that growing corn to burn is sustainable (it's not even close).



I got to try E-free while driving across the country, and it benefit me 4 MPG. So it appears to me that for every 5% of ethanol, I lose 2 MPG.
You guys figured it out.. Good job. Will the rigs run e10 and e15 yes. Will you loose mpg .....the answer is above. It's a scam to help drive down fuel costs. Pure gasoline is the best for small engines too.

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Old 08-22-2023, 08:41 PM #81
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Nope. But the cost difference will never outweigh the decrease in milage.

Don't be tempted by the lower initial price of E15. As soon as people lose reference for what a lower ethanol concentration costs, they'll erase the cost savings and pocket the difference.

Ethanol as fuel is a corn lobbied scam built on flawed assumptions that growing corn to burn is sustainable (it's not even close).

I got to try E-free while driving across the country, and it benefit me 4 MPG. So it appears to me that for every 5% of ethanol, I lose 2 MPG.
How interesting, I saw 0 difference in milage with my limited experiment using e-free. Granted it was limited as I used it for about 4 or 5 tanks and then we had a spike in gas prices....what was your actual city/highway/combined with e-free vs e10?
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Old 08-22-2023, 09:42 PM #82
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How interesting, I saw 0 difference in milage with my limited experiment using e-free. Granted it was limited as I used it for about 4 or 5 tanks and then we had a spike in gas prices....what was your actual city/highway/combined with e-free vs e10?
My experience was limited unfortunately. It was highway only, and it was 85 octane rather than the usual 87 octane. In those parts, if the gas sold isn't e-free they give you another option to buy it.

I did 2 fillups with what I assume was E-free. I say assume because it in South Dakota/Montana, and it lacked the usual warning of "contain up to 10% ethanol" that they usually have.

By the second fill up with 85 octane I got 25 MPG, normally I get 21-22 MPG in similar conditions. This is especially damning considering I got this while carrying all my stuff and a passenger up steep hills.

In fairness to E10, I've gotten 30 MPG using the stuff in similar driving. But that was once in 2021, and I haven't had that happen since.
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Old 08-22-2023, 10:03 PM #83
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In my experience the E15 stuff not only decreased mileage but it also made my truck feel slow and sluggish at lower speeds. Not quite sure if that was real or if it was just placebo.

Non-ethanol gas is great and best for our trucks, there's no question about it. Problem is, it's not as widely available as your standard E10 gas. And when it is available, you will pay a premium in terms of cost. Which is fine with me.

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Old 08-23-2023, 09:18 AM #84
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This is because these engines are tuned to run normal gasoline. It's just how it is. It runs the other fuel you just notice things..

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Old 08-23-2023, 12:34 PM #85
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In my experience the E15 stuff not only decreased mileage but it also made my truck feel slow and sluggish at lower speeds. Not quite sure if that was real or if it was just placebo.
Makes sense. When you run E85, one mod that needs to be done is fitting larger injectors. Because the fuel is diluted, you need more of it to make more power.

So our injectors cant spray enough fuel in the cylinders for there not to be a power loss. E15 is above the max dilution the fuel system was designed to handle.

When you buy E15 is the octane higher? If 10% ethanol is enough to get petroleum to 87 octane, then a higher dilution should be above that.

Looked it up, E15 is 88 octane. Rather suspicious considering it took just 10% to raise the octane rating by ~1 7(unrefined gasoline starts at 70). I'd expect E15 to have a higher rating.
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Old 08-23-2023, 01:15 PM #86
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Makes sense. When you run E85, one mod that needs to be done is fitting larger injectors. Because the fuel is diluted, you need more of it to make more power.

So our injectors cant spray enough fuel in the cylinders for there not to be a power loss. E15 is above the max dilution the fuel system was designed to handle.

When you buy E15 is the octane higher? If 10% ethanol is enough to get petroleum to 87 octane, then a higher dilution should be above that.

Looked it up, E15 is 88 octane. Rather suspicious considering it took just 10% to raise the octane rating by ~1 7(unrefined gasoline starts at 70). I'd expect E15 to have a higher rating.
I'd imagine it depends on the base octane of the gasoline they mix it with.
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Old 08-23-2023, 01:37 PM #87
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Makes sense. When you run E85, one mod that needs to be done is fitting larger injectors. Because the fuel is diluted, you need more of it to make more power.
Diluted is a bad word for what is happening.

Ethanol has a higher octane rating (harder to ignite / higher knock resistance), but a lower energy content per unit volume. So, you can make MORE power with it if the engine has the capability - at the cost of lower fuel economy.

It can/will cause problems with fueling on an engine not ready/capable of running it.

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Old 08-23-2023, 02:01 PM #88
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Diluted is a bad word for what is happening.

Ethanol has a higher octane rating (harder to ignite / higher knock resistance), but a lower energy content per unit volume. So, you can make MORE power with it if the engine has the capability - at the cost of lower fuel economy.

It can/will cause problems with fueling on an engine not ready/capable of running it.

-Charlie
I use the word diluted to suggest that the ethanol is unwanted, like the water a teen puts in their fathers alcohol so they wont notice the level decrease.

I understand the purpose it serves in my fuel. But I’d much rather have MMT or BTEX used instead since they don’t decrease MPG like ethanol does.
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Old 08-23-2023, 05:16 PM #89
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Driving from Denver to Wisconsin this summer, I monitored my mpgs. Filling up with ethanol free gas, there was no change in mpg. Infact my mpgs dropped in Nebraska due the lack of elevation even though the terrain was flat. I got better mpgs in Iowa although the terrain was rolling hills with E 10 ethanol gas. This was in a 5th Gen 4runner so it might not be true for the 5vzfe.
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Old 08-24-2023, 09:29 AM #90
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Driving from Denver to Wisconsin this summer, I monitored my mpgs. Filling up with ethanol free gas, there was no change in mpg. Infact my mpgs dropped in Nebraska due the lack of elevation even though the terrain was flat. I got better mpgs in Iowa although the terrain was rolling hills with E 10 ethanol gas. This was in a 5th Gen 4runner so it might not be true for the 5vzfe.
5th gen the engine can tune for ethonal. I think 4th gen can as well too.

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