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Old 05-10-2022, 09:20 PM #16
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Originally Posted by BlackWorksInc View Post
I know about those, I pulled them up when I was a lube tech many many years ago when they gave me bulk T-IV for one of my first old vehicle (DexIII) transmission flushes and wouldn't order me some DexIII because we didn't stock it back at the first dealer I worked at. I made a mild stink about it and either the shop foreman or the parts manager showed me a different bulletin about acceptable substitutions to shut me up. Like I said every dealer I've worked at, seen, and techs from other Lexus/Toyota dealerships have all been using T-IV in place of DexIII for decades, makes me wonder if Toyota ever gave them shit for warranty, it isn't like Toyota isn't aware that all these dealerships are using T-IV for P/S systems and basically all non-CVT/WS transmission applications.



I honestly haven't heard about the slipping issue though, that's interesting to me (what piqued my interest in the thread). We have a ton of older 4Runners (mainly late 90's 3rd gens, a few 2nd and the occasional dinosaur of a 1st gen) that get regular maintenance out here and I haven't noticed any slipping or had customers complain about it (not that I don't believe you, I'm sure there has been issues since they were originally DexIII). You learn something new every day.



Post Note- I will say that I used to be far more vehement about using only specified/Toyota approved fluids for a long time. But as I've gotten older and looked more into the engineering of fluids and manufacturers, I've become a little more tolerant of "grey spec" fluids. I've had a few long discussions with a couple guys in the industry who do training and/or run some higher end shops working on some cool stuff about fluids. They know more about that stuff than i ever will probably and basically talked about how these days T-IV was basically surpassed from a formula stand point and that any decent Dex based synthetic ATF meets those older Dex specifications in spades.



The bulk T-IV we use is not Toyota stuff (I don't think I've ever seen "Genuine/branded" Toyota ATF of any kind besides quart bottles/cases & the large metal containers for CVT now that you've got me thinking about it), it's usually either Mobil1 or Valvoline ATF, both of which cover all older Dex and T fluid specifications per their spec sheets (we had to do a quick inventory check around the beginning of COVID to make sure what fluids we had and such when it was getting hard to order stuff so I remember doing that for the SM). We rarely if ever use the actual Toyota T-IV, unless a customer specifically asks for it or just buys it over the counter.



Maybe this is one of those situations where aftermarket is a better option than factory, since you are right; per the older TSBs, genuine Toyota T-IV isn't recommended.



In any case, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong or anything like that. I just found it interesting that some of you guys were so adamant about sticking to spec and had mentioned the slipping issue. It was very counter to the usual mentality I see from most people in general (and refreshing I might add) and counter to basically every "official" Toyota/Lexus service center that's been operating for decades. I like engaging in discussions like this because they usually end up in cool information.
I didn't think you were saying I was. There have been instances of slippage using t4 in these 3rd gen transmissions though.

[ I wish I can remember where I seen it. However, the slippage immediately stopped once the T4 was exchanged out of the system. ]

Anyways

This is why I asked the OP which fluid he used as it's possibly. Granted the milage is getting up there and if the fluid wasn't exchanged with replacement screen filters in regular intervals the Transmission is probably done.

I personally have had the best luck by replacing the screen filter. Cleaning the magnets every 100k along with a complete fluid exchange.


If not, the fluid turns into sand blasting slurry which slowly destroys the transmission. If you keep the screen filter clean and the fluid exchanged and full of it's lubricating properties these transmissions will last a very long time.

This is just what I observed over the years and my theory on the automatic transmissions in general.

Like I always say folks can do as they wish it's their rigs.

I also don't Blame folks for only wanting Toyota remfg transmissions either. As those would be as close to we could get to a new transmission for these rigs..



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Old 05-10-2022, 10:24 PM #17
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In regards to the OP's question.

Reman Toyota would be a good option, though I think you only get the full benefit of the limited warranty (12mo/unlimited miles IIRC) if it's installed by a dealer.

I could be off-base on that, but I vaguely remember a situation with a Toyota reman'd transmission that was installed by a 3rd party shop. I think in that case we charged the customer diagnostic time for "proving" to Toyota that it indeed qualified as a true warrantable failure before they would honor the warranty (I think they were waffling a bit since they "couldn't be sure it was installed correctly if it wasn't done by a dealer or some BS).

I'll bug my parts manager about it this week and get back to you for a definitive answer; even Toyota's own statement leaves some vagueness...

UPDATE- 12mo/unlimited miles, part only warranty unless installed by dealer. At most you should only have to fill out their worksheet which will ask for measurements of stall speeds line pressures, etc. of the failed part if you do need to ever warranty it and it wasn't installedby a dealership. Hope that information helps.

Quote:
Plus, all Genuine Toyota Remanufactured Products are covered by a 12-month unlimited mileage warranty that’s honored by more than 1100 authorized Toyota dealerships in the continental U.S., Hawaii and Alaska. See dealer for details on limited warranty.
-Purchase Genuine OEM Used Auto Parts for Your Toyota

But I will say that I haven't heard the best of things regarding Jasper and I want to say AMMCO in the last decade or so; have had a couple guys who owned shops or used them in both the Bay Area and out here have issues with their quality and warranties. I have never dealt with them directly, so take that how ever you want.

In terms of rebuilding the transmission? It's doable, I just don't know if you can get new "genuine" parts? I don't think Toyota would have much of anything in the way of parts for the vehicle, so you would have to do your research on aftermarket offerings in terms of seals, gaskets, new bands, clutches, etc. Also rebuilding an automatic transmission yourself is a bit of an endeavor; it's not quite like rebuilding an engine or differential. There is a lot of measurements you're going to need to take and compare to either a copy of the FSM or the transmission manual to determine what things will be replaced and if you need specialized parts (i.e. "Shim Kit B" because your total stack tolerance exceeds X and so you pick from a table of parts). It was both a fun and very technical experience when I rebuilt automatics back in school (fun memory, one of my partners managed to install the one-way clutch completely backwards, every roller and spring, etc. was impressive... even if we had to tear it back down to fix it.)

Post Note- (If you don't care about stupid technical, historical, pedantic stuff, skip the wall below, you've been warned.)

@brillo_76

So having gotten sucked down a rather deep rabbit hole and digging around in the dark corners of TIS and the history of ATFs... I am going to say that the most "official" document in regards to ATF T-IV's "compatibility" with Dexron III fluid is in the attached PANT Bulletin. It is actually the only place I see any mention of an "ATF T-III" outside of an obscure SAE paper regarding approaching early OBD-II false misfires due to how the TCC worked back then, this required a redesigned TCC system that allowed some slippage and thus a new fluid was supposedly needed? Besides this PANT bulletin and that SAE paper, "ATF T-III" doesn't seem to exist in that specific name. Coincidentally a few years after this paper the Dexron-III(F) [GM Spec GM6417M] was being phased out for the newer Dexron-III(G) [Also GM Spec GM6417M] and with that came a slew of new licensed variants including ATF T-IV (which has additive packages specifically to deal with the newer way the TCC was being allowed to slip to prevent false misfires, oddly enough for the AW transmissions this was accomplished by just duty cyclin the TCC with a new linear solenoid rather than new friction material?). In '06 GM discontinued licensing for Dexron III and with the introduction of Dexron VI they basically washed their hands of the prior specifications by issuing a circular logic:
Quote:
All DEXRON-III licenses expired at the end of 2006, and will not be renewed. Beyond that date, General Motors will only support the use of DEXRON-VI fluids for use in Hydra-Matic transmissions. Fluids claiming DEXRON-III type performance continue to be sold under abbreviated names such as Dex/Merc and D/M, however, since the DEXRON-III licensing system no longer exists, these fluids are not regulated by GM in any way.
There is also an unsubstantiated (well, I say unsubstantiated because I can't find a picture of it) claim that a Volvo guy in Europe bought some Genuine Toyota ATF T-IV and it said on the back: "Meets performance requirements of GM6417M (Dexron-III G)" Additionally Toyota seems to have played fast and loose with ATF specifications outside of the US (particularly in regards to the Camry based on what I was seeing pop up being referenced commonly), which doesn't surprise me. It also seems like there may have been a reformulation of ATF T-IV by Exxon-Mobil (mainly because their own JWS-3309 was updated to blanket all prior Dexron and Toyota "T" fluids).

The amount of conflicting information from Toyota itself over the years and supporting (though somewhat circumstantial if we're being honest) evidence seems to indicate that Toyota "T" fluid was just their way of trying to play with licensing around Dexron, eventually GM just abandoned licensing it and it seems like it was just passed along to substitute ATF T-IV for Dexron applications (though from chatting with older guys, parts manager, etc. it seems like this was done more informally than one would expect.) Far as I can tell from the actual fluid specifications to following the history of the ATF fluids Toyota used and knowing that fluid specs are usually set by the oil industry not the engineers making the transmissions; T-IV is just Dexron III(G), which superseded the older Dexron III(F) fluid. The supersession was never officially acknowledged because of licensing agreements and by the time those agreements expired, it didn't really matter because that specification because ridiculously generic (i.e. all the "Universal ATFs" that basically blanket all the Dexron & ATF T specifications among other Dexron variants).

I don't think this is really the "end all be all," of this debate... but it was really annoying me that I couldn't find any specific information on T-IV or T-III and that basically all Toyota/Lexus Parts/Service switched to T-IV being a replacement for prior Dexron specifications but I couldn't trace a paper trail or documentation for why. So like I said, got sucked down a deep rabbit hole trying to remember a lot of old things and figure out the context of so much conflicting information from the manufacturers.

At the end of the day, using what the factory specifies won't hurt anything; but I think at the time of this writing that ATF T-IV (either Toyota or aftermarket) spec fluids should be formulated to encompass prior Toyota ATF callouts for Dexron III or Dexron II. I'm going to go to sleep now though, I am tired.
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Last edited by BlackWorksInc; 05-11-2022 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 05-28-2022, 12:57 AM #18
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I've used Toyota dex 3 and valvoline synthetic

No changes.

Amazon.com: Toyota Genuine Fluid 00718ATF00 Dexron III Transmission Fluid - 1 Quart : Automotive

It turns out the remanufactured unit for mine is no longer available

The rebuilder is reputable, 2 years 24K mile warranty. They say it will be as good as new, which makes me suspicious.
But they are highly recommended.
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Old 05-28-2022, 01:11 AM #19
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I hope you didn’t buy the Toyota dexron 3 off Amazon. That’s double Toyota retail price.
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