[connorms]

Originally Posted by Dezert4Runner

The LC coils have a really light spring rate. Similar to that of stock 4Runner coils (160#, I believe). If you were going from an OME 890/891 that had a little higher spring rate I could see how a taller ride height/ center of gravity would make it feel less stable and sway more. If I’m understanding your previous lift you mentioned, you probably had a stock 4Runner coil and a spacer? It really shouldn’t drive too differently if your shocks weren’t changed. Icons are digressive, so maybe that’s playing a more significant factor than I would guess. The front end links are shorter than the stock rear ones, so that’s not the right move. You did good swapping the rears for 2nd gen 4Runner rears. .

I'm not sure if Rough Country has changed it since then, but the kit I had came with new rear shocks and springs, as it gave ~3" of lift. It only came with a spacer for the front springs. The rear end is a little taller with the LC coils, but only by about 1/2" so maybe it's just the softer spring rate I'm feeling. Just by pushing each of the shocks (RC vs ICON) in by hand, the ICONs felt a lot stiffer, but I guess I was expecting it to make a bigger difference. Maybe I'm just used to a harsh ride

As for the end links, I was going off this post from @MStudt . I tried looking into it online but keep getting mixed answers on how much the end link length affects body roll, so I wasn't sure if anyone on here has firsthand experience with it.

Originally Posted by MStudt

*2nd Gen rear links are about 2" longer than 3rd Gen rear links
*2nd Gen rear links are about 1" longer than 3rd Gen front links
*3rd gen front links are about 1" longer than 3rd Gen rear links

[Dezert4Runner]

Before I switched to a set of Mstudt heimed rear links I had the stock ones and it made a noticeable difference when I put the proper length on it. I went from the stock rear 3rd gen to the custom links. The tension that was on the sway bar from having too short of a link was negatively affecting the ride quality. I think the 2nd gen rear links being 2” longer than stock are what you need when running over 3” lift but I guess you can get away with running the front 3rd gen links that are the next longest in the stock ones you mentioned. The sway bar should be more or less parallel with the lower control arm.

[GhostRing]

Originally Posted by connorms

I tried looking into it online but keep getting mixed answers on how much the end link length affects body roll, so I wasn't sure if anyone on here has firsthand experience with it.

Don't know if this matters, but I cut & sleeved my links to match my lift (slightly saggy 890's)
and I felt a distinct improvement in the rear end's handling characteristics.
I did add fresh OEM rubber bushings all around as well, which can only help.

I actually made them too long the 1st try and they were hitting the oversized lower trailing arms,
so keep in mind you can have "too much of a good thing".
Otherwise, take the time to dial it in, as the payoff is likely worth it.

[MStudt]

Originally Posted by connorms

I'm not sure if Rough Country has changed it since then, but the kit I had came with new rear shocks and springs, as it gave ~3" of lift. It only came with a spacer for the front springs. The rear end is a little taller with the LC coils, but only by about 1/2" so maybe it's just the softer spring rate I'm feeling. Just by pushing each of the shocks (RC vs ICON) in by hand, the ICONs felt a lot stiffer, but I guess I was expecting it to make a bigger difference. Maybe I'm just used to a harsh ride

As for the end links, I was going off this post from @MStudt . I tried looking into it online but keep getting mixed answers on how much the end link length affects body roll, so I wasn't sure if anyone on here has firsthand experience with it.

Most people will move 3rd Gen front to the rear since they're about 1" longer than OEM. You can use 2nd Gen rear links on the front of a 3rd Gen since they're about 1" longer. You can possibly add the 2nd Gen links to the rear, but that depends on how much lift you have. If you're on the lower end of a lift you might have some contact with your LCA's.

Mike

[phattyduck]

Originally Posted by connorms

One thing I've noticed is that the back end feels a little loose compared to before, which is kind of strange as I was expecting the opposite. The shocks are valved for a Tundra, which is much heavier than our trucks so I was expecting a bit of a stiff ride.

Those are valved for the back end (light!) of a leaf spring suspension. Leafs already have their own dampening (friction), so shocks for leave springs have much softer valving compared to the same rate coils. People who use 1st gen Tundra rear shocks have the same reaction - not enough dampening...

-Charlie

[connorms]

Originally Posted by GhostRing

I actually made them too long the 1st try and they were hitting the oversized lower trailing arms,
so keep in mind you can have "too much of a good thing".
Otherwise, take the time to dial it in, as the payoff is likely worth it.

Originally Posted by MStudt

You can possibly add the 2nd Gen links to the rear, but that depends on how much lift you have. If you're on the lower end of a lift you might have some contact with your LCA's.

Good to know, so far it looks like it fits ok, but it's definitely close. I think once I build my lower links with some larger tubing it will contact, so I'll have to try something shorter and hopefully get it dialed. Appreciate the insight!

Originally Posted by phattyduck

Those are valved for the back end (light!) of a leaf spring suspension. Leafs already have their own dampening (friction), so shocks for leave springs have much softer valving compared to the same rate coils. People who use 1st gen Tundra rear shocks have the same reaction - not enough dampening...

Damn I never thought of that but it makes a lot of sense. I guess between that and the lower spring rates on the LC coils it makes sense why it feels a lot softer now. Might have to try my hand at revalving the shocks

[connorms]

Very small update, but got a set of Spidertrax 1.25" wheel spacers installed this weekend. Hopefully they're enough to stop the wheel from rubbing on the shock mount, but I'm thinking I might need to go a little wider. Just need to go and flex it out somewhere to see if it rubs since my jacks not tall enough to test it in my driveway.



If these work then the rear end is close to being finished! Just need to cut and weld up some new links and get some extended bump stops, then it should be all wrapped up (for now).

[connorms]

Slowly been chipping away at small stuff over the past few weekends. Finally got my front end off the ground (which is a PITA to do with a low profile jack with all the extra down travel), so I was able to paint my front wheels and have matching wheels again!



Also did an oil/filter change while I was waiting for each coat to dry. Done at just over 235k miles. Currently I'm having issues with passing smog as my EVAP system hasn't run its check since the battery died last. I've been driving it steadily at 55mph like the smog guys are telling me to, but no matter what I do I can't seem to get it to run its test to allow it to pass. Sucks because I'm late on registration now AND I got a ticket for parking it at work with expired tags, only because I was driving it to work in an attempt to get it to run its test :/

And while it's not directly related to my build, I've been welding up a set of True North Fabrications front & rear bumpers for a friend of mine who's also got a 3rd gen. These have been such a blast to put together, like they seriously go together like LEGOs and look great. Has me wanting to get the rear bumper, but it's hard to justify doing that when I have all the tools to make one :/



I also am really considering going back to mid travel. It might be me being dumb, but I keep seeing all these super clean mid travel builds and it really has me tempted to go back to a more reasonable setup...

[Iron duke]

Originally Posted by connorms

I also am really considering going back to mid travel. It might be me being dumb, but I keep seeing all these super clean mid travel builds and it really has me tempted to go back to a more reasonable setup...

Might as well see what you can get for the entire kit. Kings are going to be a big selling point. Maybe you could just trade some guy his entire stock setup if it's any good and get some money on top. Also, tuning beats travel numbers any day period. Stock 4runners have looked better than full LT ones because they had bypasses vs off the shelf suspension on LT's.

King sells Internal bypass shocks and Wicked creations sells top hat adapters, so you could almost bolt on a universal coilover to a stock setup and have really good handling.
King 2.5 x 6" Coilover, Remote, IBP w/ Spring | AccuTune
WC 3rd Gen (1996 - 2002) Toyota Bucket Shock Mount

Or go crazy with full external bypasses and weld the TC top bracket and fab your own lower mount to the LCA. Best bang for the buck is going to be a Tundra 6112. You'll pay $800 for billy's, $1200-1700 for Fox/King/Icon/Ads etc, or like $4000 for Bypass and Coilovers.

You can get used OEM lca's pretty cheap off ebay or a junk yard and then press in some whiteline bushings. For max wheel travel, get the bft/icon/Tc uniball UCA's, and for best alignment/least maintenance get SPC or JBA. Probably going to pay $1000-1200 for LCA/UCA/bushings

If I had to redo everything on my rig, I'd keep stock geo and grab some bypasses out back and some IBP or 6112's up front. Just not as big a difference as I would've liked on the top shelf 2.5's without a custom valving/rebuild...which I don't want to do lol. Off the shelf 6112's vs off the shelf Icon for example will not be so different unless both are pushed to the max.

I have tuned fox shocks with resis out back to replace the 5100's, and the biggest difference is high speed stuff and big hits. I feel like with the fox's the rear end isn't washing out on me and it doesn't go straight to bump on jumps. Onroad I prefer the softer/plusher riding bilsteins...and I am a bilstein 5100 hater.

If you are going to push your rig to it's limits or have it packed out all the time, go for the heavier duty/adjustable/rebuildable coilovers. If you are going to daily it and be onroad 95% of the time, I'd go the more economical route with the 6112's. Just my long winded 0.02

[connorms]

Originally Posted by Iron duke

...

Appreciate the advice! If I were to build it down, I've got a friend with a solid King/SPC setup with manual hubs that we've agreed to swap with cash on his end if I ever make the decision to. I keep flip flopping though so as long as I can't make my mind up it'll stay, and at this point I doubt I'll ever make up my mind lol. Leaning towards just rebuilding the shocks, re-powerdercoating everything and getting it cleaned back up and enjoying it again.

================================================== ========

Made some more progress on the rear end this weekend. At some point after my rear upper shock nut sheared off it managed to wedge itself against the upper control arm, bending it in the process. While I could have gotten away with just replacing the one arm, I didn't see the fun in that and figured it was time to beef up the rear control arms a bit. I didn't want to drop the cash for a premade set, so I thought it would be a fun project to make my own. I've got a friend who works at Poly Performance so I was able to get a set of their dual durometer bushings & sleeves for insanely cheap, and then got some DOM tubing to build the arms out of. It worked out really well, as Poly Performance has bushings with the exact width/bolt size I needed, so it made things much easier. They also say they don't need any maintenance but still have a very good range of motion (~30* of left/right movement), so they seemed like the best compromise between heims and bushings.



I ended up using 1.5" x .188" DOM tubing for the lower arms and 1.25" x .120" DOM tubing for the uppers. There should be no chance of these bending now, as the lowers are thicker tubing than my rock sliders lol.



Welded on the ABS line clip thing to the uppers for shits and giggles:


And had to paint them the same bronze as everything else. Slight upgrade in strength over stock too:



It's hard to tell in the pictures, but I made both the uppers and lowers slightly longer than stock to push the axle back slightly, and I made the uppers another ~1/2" longer to help my pinion angle a bit. Hopefully I got everything right, as these are clearly not adjustable so I guess we'll see

Making the arms took maybe an hour or two max, so I was stoked thinking this would be a half-a-day project and everything would go on time for once! I couldn't have been more wrong. The one thing I forgot to account for was to make sure the distance from the bolt to the outside of the bushing was the same between the new bushings and the OEM arms. Unfortunately, the new arms were about 1/8" larger than the old ones, so I was able to get the bolt through to install them, but they were binding on the back support of the link mounts. I had to cut the back of each mount, bend the back support piece back, and re-weld it. Wish I thought of that ahead of time, but live and learn I guess. Once I finished that, install was super easy and it came out looking great:


(you can kind of see the changes I had to make to the upper link mounts, but it's not super noticeable and just gives it a bit more clearance).

I also got around to installing a dif breather and a Toytec extended brake line that I've both had sitting around for a couple months, which you can see in the above pic. Now I just need to figure out how to get some more slack on my ebrake cable, as when everything is drooped out that gets pretty tight. I'm also almost done with the rear end until I save up to do a major overhaul, but I'm pretty happy with this setup so hopefully it'll serve me well for a few years. All that's left are some extended bump stops, which I'm thinking I'll go with some Durobumps or something similar for now, and I need to get an adjustable panhard bar as the stock one is about 1/2" short now due to the geometry changes I made. So currently I'm running no panhard bar in the meantime. I'll be ordering an adjustable one within the next few days, so if anyone has any advice on one I'm all ears!

[Dezert4Runner]

I wouldn’t drive without the panhard, personally. If the upper rear control arms were triangulated it would be fine but the panhard is the main left to right axle locator. Ratchet straps should get your panhard where it needs to be to bolt it up, even if it seems a little short. The panhard correction kit is actually the best way to fix the geometry from lifting your vehicle. Extended panhard is more of a bandaid that was previously considered an acceptable solution before the pck hit the market.

[clearock]

If u try to drive without a pan bar ur rear axle will violently move side to side at speed, if u dont lose control of the vehicle before the axle rips itself from out under the 4runner... pan bar is a must with stock geometry.

[T4topher]

I do remember reading something by eimkeith saying you can remove one of the rear upper control arms (def not the panhard) and you should still be ok so long as you have beefier control arms. Never really seen anyone try it but a typical 3 link setup is 2x lowers 1x upper and 1x panhard.

[connorms]

Originally Posted by Dezert4Runner

I wouldn’t drive without the panhard, personally. If the upper rear control arms were triangulated it would be fine but the panhard is the main left to right axle locator. Ratchet straps should get your panhard where it needs to be to bolt it up, even if it seems a little short. The panhard correction kit is actually the best way to fix the geometry from lifting your vehicle. Extended panhard is more of a bandaid that was previously considered an acceptable solution before the pck hit the market.

Originally Posted by clearock

If u try to drive without a pan bar ur rear axle will violently move side to side at speed, if u dont lose control of the vehicle before the axle rips itself from out under the 4runner... pan bar is a must with stock geometry.

Yeah totally get that. The first (and only) drive back to my house after doing the work on it with no panhard bar felt super sketchy, even without going over ~20mph the whole time. I just had to make it back to my house since I don't do the work here, but once I got it back I parked it until I could order a new panhard bar.

I ended up going with a Front Range Offroad adjustable panhard bar. Pretty hard to beat the price at ~$150, and a super simple design too. It showed up yesterday and I got it painted & installed today. It feels good to be able to safely drive again, this whole project was supposed to take a weekend and I'm going on the 3rd week of not being able to drive it... Just leaves bump stops left on the list and the rear end is "done"!



I also need to figure something out for extending the ebrake cable. When everything is drooped out the cable gets REALLY tight, so I want to get that taken care of so I don't rip it out or have it lock my brakes up on a trail. I've seen the Sonoran Steel bracket that moves it up slightly, but I don't think that will help in my case as when everything is drooped out the cable is fully taught with the bracket completely disconnected (pictured above), so I'd imagine that would mean having it bolted in (even if it's a little higher up) would make things even worse. I'm kind of thinking of just removing it entirely, as my bell cranks are completely seized so the parking brake doesn't work right now anyways. I plan on fixing that soon, though, and I'd obviously prefer to keep my ebrake over removing it entirely. Has anyone run into this before, and is there an easy way to get another ~2" of slack on the ebrake cable?

[clearock]

I had to cut and lengthen my e brake cable by welding on said and making a extension bracket/splits but that was short lived as about this point in mods (similar to where u r) I started snapping rear diff ring gear teeth, after the 3rd diff, moved up to a tundra 10.5" diff and had to redesign everything in the rear...