[mtbtim]

Originally Posted by Malcolm99

I've read that long write up and never seen this problem on all the retainers and seals I've installed, I've seen both your videos, I must have missed the part where you measure the retainers location using the depth gauge of the caliper,.. that is how to properly install the tone ring and retainer in its proper location. So either you're not driving the seal all the way or your retainers are not put back to nearly the identical location it should be. Sorry but that is how this job is done successfully, there is nothing wrong with the OEM updated seal, great videos though.

EDIT: I will say that if someone else had been in there and didn't measure the retainers location that will cause a lot of problems if you don't know what the proper measurements are to relocate everything .

I know what the FSM shows on how to measure the distance to install the inner retainer, and mechanics following this instruction without knowing the new seal design changed the depth of the seal inside the axle tube is the main problem why tons and I mean TONS of dealership, independent shop, and machine shop mechanics f@ck this job up time and time again. You don't need to use a measuring caliper when you use the method I suggest by using the amount of polished axle showing above the retainer as a guideline for the proper placement of the retainer on the axle.

I find it comical that you're suggesting I'm not driving the seal in far enough. I've done this job probably at least 15 times with success.

So sorry Bro, I have a crapload of experience with this job and know what I'm doing. I've seen where the seal rides on the retainer with the new seal design and with the retainer in the original OEM location on the axle, and it's nowhere near center on the polished shoulder on the retainer. This is the reason for the flipping of the retainer because the seal doesn't first have to push past the bevel for it to get up onto the polished shoulder. You gain back the 2mm depth loss of the new seal design without having to move the retainer further inboard risking the retainer rubbing on the inside of the axle housing.

So, you can do it whatever way you want. I know what works and I've taught thousands of people how to perform this job successfully through my videos.

[NachesPass4x4]

Originally Posted by mtbtim

I've done this job probably at least 15 times with success.

I have a question about this, that I don't think was in the video. If the inner retainer the seal rides on, gets pressed to far, Is it ok to just use the tone ring tool to press it back out a bit and try again? Or will this damage the new retainer and cause a leak? I haven't started reassembly yet, just curious. I'm tempted to try a little ultra grey under the inner retainer for extra insurance.

[mtbtim]

Originally Posted by NachesPass4x4

I have a question about this, that I don't think was in the video. If the inner retainer the seal rides on, gets pressed to far, Is it ok to just use the tone ring tool to press it back out a bit and try again? Or will this damage the new retainer and cause a leak? I haven't started reassembly yet, just curious. I'm tempted to try a little ultra grey under the inner retainer for extra insurance.

You can pull the ABS tone ring and inner retainer back some with the axle tools no problem. It wouldn't hurt adding some sealant to the retainer, but i only think this would be necessary if you were using a used retainer that was pulled off the axle and the act of pulling it off left striations in the metal that could allow gear oil to get past. This is why it's a good idea to use a new retainer for the inner retainer. For the outer retainer, you can reuse that one no problem because it's just a place holder for the bearing.

[Previologist]

Another thing my shop mentioned is that the seal might not have to be driven all the way back, as long as its evenly pressed all around. Leaving it a bit proud might also help compensate for the changed seal (a change which is plainly obvious when you compare old and new side by side). Not sure how viable an option that is for the average home mechanic, but thought I'd mention it. I'll be happy if i can just get the seals in without ruining them.

Timmy your videos are invaluable, there's no doubt about that. I did my clutch and timing belt and so far, my rear wheel bearings and seals and I never could have or would have attempted any of these jobs without your videos. I will use your valve cover gasket video next year and I'm sure i will use more of them when I get around to other jobs. Keep up the great work!

[mtbtim]

Originally Posted by Previologist

Another thing my shop mentioned is that the seal might not have to be driven all the way back, as long as its evenly pressed all around. Leaving it a bit proud might also help compensate for the changed seal (a change which is plainly obvious when you compare old and new side by side). Not sure how viable an option that is for the average home mechanic, but thought I'd mention it. I'll be happy if i can just get the seals in without ruining them.

Timmy your videos are invaluable, there's no doubt about that. I did my clutch and timing belt and so far, my rear wheel bearings and seals and I never could have or would have attempted any of these jobs without your videos. I will use your valve cover gasket video next year and I'm sure i will use more of them when I get around to other jobs. Keep up the great work!

Yes, if you can accurately drive in the seal shy of being fully seated into the axle housing this could compensate for the new seal design. It's just difficult to accurately do this because one strike with the seal driver and hammer can end up seating the seal fully in on at least one side of the seal. But, with enough seals, you could most likely get it done.

I'm happy to know our videos have been helping you out.

Happy Wrenching!

[Ibrad]

I would suggest fully seating the seal each and every time. Think how many bounces and hard pothole hits the axle takes each and every day. You don't want a seal 80% seated and the next pothole to knock it out and be churning around the tone ring then ate up and make its way into the differential. That's a bad thought. The abs ring and the retainer are made to be adjusted. Measurements are good but as always suggested the paint pen, sharpie test or the old school grease test are foolproof. I did not flip my retainer but did reuse them. If minuscule striations are left in the axle when pulling the tone ring and retainers off, and this is cause for concern, then a new axle would have been recommended as needing replaced when doing the rear wheel bearings by Toyota I would think.

[morphius909]

Originally Posted by Previologist

The much dreaded, much procrastinated, smelly oily messy day has arrived. Thank goodness i smashed up my other Toyota in July, so i could avoid this job to work on that one. Well I can't avoid it any longer, winter is coming and this is my rustbucket winter driver.

Hopefully my next post will be "yay, I'm done" because I'm just pulling the axles and having the local driveline shop do the real work. But just in case...

I noticed my rear passenger leaking...I just pretended to not seen the staining....

[Previologist]

Originally Posted by morphius909

I noticed my rear passenger leaking...I just pretended to not seen the staining....

deal with your (most likely) clogged breather and there's a chance it will stop

[GhostRing]

Originally Posted by Previologist

deal with your (most likely) clogged breather and there's a chance it will stop

It may stop, but it sure ain't fixed...

[Previologist]

Originally Posted by GhostRing

It may stop, but it sure ain't fixed...

Nope, but some people are content with stopping the leak and repacking the bearings, or even just stopping the leak until the bearings blow. That wouldn't be my choice, but...some do it.

[Malcolm99]

Originally Posted by mtbtim

I know what the FSM shows on how to measure the distance to install the inner retainer, and mechanics following this instruction without knowing the new seal design changed the depth of the seal inside the axle tube is the main problem why tons and I mean TONS of dealership, independent shop, and machine shop mechanics f@ck this job up time and time again. You don't need to use a measuring caliper when you use the method I suggest by using the amount of polished axle showing above the retainer as a guideline for the proper placement of the retainer on the axle.

I find it comical that you're suggesting I'm not driving the seal in far enough. I've done this job probably at least 15 times with success.

So sorry Bro, I have a crapload of experience with this job and know what I'm doing. I've seen where the seal rides on the retainer with the new seal design and with the retainer in the original OEM location on the axle, and it's nowhere near center on the polished shoulder on the retainer. This is the reason for the flipping of the retainer because the seal doesn't first have to push past the bevel for it to get up onto the polished shoulder. You gain back the 2mm depth loss of the new seal design without having to move the retainer further inboard risking the retainer rubbing on the inside of the axle housing.

So, you can do it whatever way you want. I know what works and I've taught thousands of people how to perform this job successfully through my videos.

No need to say sorry or bro, the proper way to measure it is using a caliper, do not measure from the polished section of the shaft because it could be different from the machining process, batches or years, and you have to eyeball where you determine polished and not polished is, its ok to be wrong sometimes, the FSM says how to measure it, and its the proper way of doing it, except the cutting off the retainer part obviously. Also not driving the seal all the way, this is an excellent way of adjusting seal lip location if needed, and its simple.

As for the flip, well its beveled for a reason, to stop the spring from popping off the back of the seal upon install(which you wouldn't notice until it leaked. You are not the only person to work on a 3rd gen, keep up the great videos though, they are excellent for people who have never worked on a 3rd gen 4R or a specific issue.

[mtbtim]

Originally Posted by Malcolm99

No need to say sorry or bro, the proper way to measure it is using a caliper, do not measure from the polished section of the shaft because it could be different from the machining process, batches or years, and you have to eyeball where you determine polished and not polished is, its ok to be wrong sometimes, the FSM says how to measure it, and its the proper way of doing it, except the cutting off the retainer part obviously. Also not driving the seal all the way, this is an excellent way of adjusting seal lip location if needed, and its simple.

As for the flip, well its beveled for a reason, to stop the spring from popping off the back of the seal upon install(which you wouldn't notice until it leaked. You are not the only person to work on a 3rd gen, keep up the great videos though, they are excellent for people who have never worked on a 3rd gen 4R or a specific issue.

The "Proper" way to do it is you have a good mating of the seal with the inner retainer and how you get there isn't important. The FSM regularly doesn't show the easiest or best way to do a repair. If the FSM was the almighty bible, why would we even need forums like this? People could just read the FSM. The polished area of the axles is very consistent. If this were not the case, I would have seen it on the 15 4runners I've done this job on or one of my viewers would have brought it to my attention which hasn't happened. My 2 videos on this repair have over 400k views, but your experience doing this job 4 times trumps all of that.

Another thing you missed from the Dr Coffee write-up and my videos is the new seal design is very pliable. You're not going to displace the retention spring of the seal. If that were the case, I wouldn't be teaching people how to do it that way. With your caliper measuring way, or my way, it doesn't really matter. As long as you get a good mating of the seal and the retainer, you've done the job right.

Thousands of people have used my videos with success for this job. I have no problems admitting I'm wrong, but in this case, I'm not wrong in my approach to this repair.

I think you're one of these guys that likes to give praise and be condescending while he's doing it. According to you, my videos are basically only valuable for people who've never worked on a 3rd Gen. My videos have helped people across the whole spectrum of experience with these rigs.

I won't bother engaging with you in future posts because I see how these discussions are going to go with you trying to show me up and it will just be another annoying exchange like this one. You should really start your own YouTube channel and show off your incredible knowledge of these vehicles. I'm sure you'll be a big success.

[mtbtim]

Originally Posted by Ibrad

I would suggest fully seating the seal each and every time. Think how many bounces and hard pothole hits the axle takes each and every day. You don't want a seal 80% seated and the next pothole to knock it out and be churning around the tone ring then ate up and make its way into the differential. That's a bad thought. The abs ring and the retainer are made to be adjusted. Measurements are good but as always suggested the paint pen, sharpie test or the old school grease test are foolproof. I did not flip my retainer but did reuse them. If minuscule striations are left in the axle when pulling the tone ring and retainers off, and this is cause for concern, then a new axle would have been recommended as needing replaced when doing the rear wheel bearings by Toyota I would think.

I've experienced reusing the inner retainers causing a leak. The axle steel is much harder than the retainer or ABS tone ring steel. No damage occurs to the axle shaft upon removal of the parts. I've felt the inside of some of these old retainers and you can feel the grooves left in the metal. So, yes, it is a cause for concern and why I changed my suggestion of reusing both retainers for this job in order for people to save money. The ABS tone ring and outer retainer can be reused without issue.

[Malcolm99]

Originally Posted by mtbtim

The "Proper" way to do it is you have a good mating of the seal with the inner retainer and how you get there isn't important. The FSM regularly doesn't show the easiest or best way to do a repair. If the FSM was the almighty bible, why would we even need forums like this? People could just read the FSM. The polished area of the axles is very consistent. If this were not the case, I would have seen it on the 15 4runners I've done this job on or one of my viewers would have brought it to my attention which hasn't happened. My 2 videos on this repair have over 400k views, but your experience doing this job 4 times trumps all of that.

Another thing you missed from the Dr Coffee write-up and my videos is the new seal design is very pliable. You're not going to displace the retention spring of the seal. If that were the case, I wouldn't be teaching people how to do it that way. With your caliper measuring way, or my way, it doesn't really matter. As long as you get a good mating of the seal and the retainer, you've done the job right.

Thousands of people have used my videos with success for this job. I have no problems admitting I'm wrong, but in this case, I'm not wrong in my approach to this repair.

I think you're one of these guys that likes to give praise and be condescending while he's doing it. According to you, my videos are basically only valuable for people who've never worked on a 3rd Gen. My videos have helped people across the whole spectrum of experience with these rigs.

I won't bother engaging with you in future posts because I see how these discussions are going to go with you trying to show me up and it will just be another annoying exchange like this one. You should really start your own YouTube channel and show off your incredible knowledge of these vehicles. I'm sure you'll be a big success.

Right, we don't need the FSM because we have Tim and the forum.., glad your Youtube channel has views Tim, I won't entertain explaining why measuring something that you have to eyeball isn't an ideal way to do it, and any aftermarket axle would require a proper measurement with a depth gauge as should the OEM, but since you can never be wrong in this regard because you've done it 15 times, I wish you the best, I always enjoy your snuggle on youtube.

[Previologist]

When I discovered the leaking seals months ago, the first thing I did was check and top off the oil, which was not very low considering how much oil was on the backing plates. I was forced to drive it anyway for a couple months, when my other car was in an accident. A couple weeks before I pulled the axles I started to hear a droning noise and discovered the diff was pretty low, so I topped it off again. The sound remained.

When I drained the oil to do the seals, there wasn't a remarkable amount of metal shavings on the drain plug. Nothing big, just a very fine paste. It looked pretty normal to me, but what do I know. It had probably been 80,000 miles since I last changed it. Filled it up with 75-90w.

But I still have a droning-humming sound and my anxiety is growing. It can't be the bearings. Its not very loud, but its there and it sounds like it is coming from the rear. It could be other things. My tires aren't in great shape, for one. How can I rule out the diff?