[Duhockey]

Originally Posted by Hepar

Bleah. What a headache. I wonder if we can get a condensed sticky list of people's specific issues with a company and their products, (COB comes to mind), so people can be a little more informed before they buy. Maybe even a good/bad list.

Well, we do have a list of good/bad sellers for the forum, we could always start a thread and make it a sticky.

I can see it getting out of hand though, would need to have pretty good guidelines about posting reviews only. I wouldnt want to sift thru 100s of yeah, that company sucks... I just want to see the actual review with important info.

[Hepar]

Originally Posted by Duhockey

Well, we do have a list of good/bad sellers for the forum, we could always start a thread and make it a sticky.

I can see it getting out of hand though, would need to have pretty good guidelines about posting reviews only. I wouldnt want to sift thru 100s of yeah, that company sucks... I just want to see the actual review with important info.

Maybe just a condensed list with a link to a specific thread on bad experiences with a certain product and good experiences. It could be broken up into different sections depending on the specific part.

[FoneRunner]

I've got to chime in here and say that every time I called Eaton, they were on the spot and helpful. I had a local company do my install and I haven't had a moments problem out of it. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but maybe yours was installed wrong to begin with, and then Eaton had a bad day...the only issue I've had with them is getting them to send me a free sticker for my window.

[Duhockey]

Originally Posted by FoneRunner

I've got to chime in here and say that every time I called Eaton, they were on the spot and helpful. I had a local company do my install and I haven't had a moments problem out of it. I'm going to go out on a limb here, but maybe yours was installed wrong to begin with, and then Eaton had a bad day...the only issue I've had with them is getting them to send me a free sticker for my window.

hate to break it to you, but I pulled it apart myself and there is no possible way to install it wrong and have the problem Im having.

the fact is the trutrac doesnt fully support the axle on the driver side and it lends itself to problems. Chase at ECGS has seen tons of problems with these in all kinds of IFS vehicles so its not just a Toyota/Trutrac issue.

Like Ive stated, other circumstances lead to my case being more severe, (different size tires, bad LCA bushings, coilovers cranked to 4", etc) but what Chase said is that most of the time he gets these, they leak out the side of the diff because the axle doesnt seat properly and/or they dont have enough lubrication because they dont have any gap to get gear oil into where the axle seats itself.

Unfortunately, Eatons service was indefensible... I talked to a Brent, he works in the differential department specializing in tec support for TruTrac...
I have his last name and direct # after calling the 800# ten times during business hrs and finally getting to someone that actually worked there instead of an ANSWERING SERVICE. After talking to him and getting zero help, I sent him these exact pictures...

From 4runner Build

and

From 4runner Build

both of which Chase at ECGS and my installer Anthony recognized immediately as part of the TruTrac.

My problem with Brent is that he refuses to acknowledge that the damaged is part of the TruTrac when it obviously is...

As if it even needed to be confirmed when I tore it apart, the trouble is not the axle... the axle is the exact same as my other axles I ran for years. I know, we measured every single possible thing on the axle and the diff to make sure that Anthony didnt screw it up or the axle wasnt faulty.

I know FoneRunner and LINY4runner haven't had any problems yet, and maybe they wont. I think LINY already did his LCA bushings before he put in the Trutrac so he may never have issues. But I wonder what happens when FoneRunners LCAs bushings start to go out if he will hear some of the same issues, or have problems getting his axles out.

The inconsistency in the problems (some axles not going in far enough, others cant go far enough in to clip) that might indicate a problem with manufacturing, maybe only certain ones made in a certain plant has issues.. I dont know. I do know that the stock OEM design allows for much more support and lubrication than the TruTrac design and that alone is something that should be fixed. Chases calls to Eaton have resulted in nothing but them denying any issues.

All that being said... I had several options, I could go back to an open diff. I could sink another grand into my diff and get an ARB for the front, or I could have Chase do some mods to the TruTrac to make it "more stock-like" It was an easy choice.

I dont like the thought of an ARB in the front of an IFS rig, especially with no locker in the back. I would rather go with the Tru Trac which is maintenance free, does well in the type of 4wheeling that I do and overall will allow for slippage in the circumstances its designed to slip in..

I like what the Tru trac is capable of and I decided to stick with it instead of go back to an open front diff. If that doesnt tell you how much I like what I know the Tru Trac is capable of, I dont know what will. Just know, if you need REAL help from someone on the TruTrac, call Chase at ECGS or if you are South, hit up ACC. they apparently know what they are doing also.

[Duhockey]

Originally Posted by Hepar

Maybe just a condensed list with a link to a specific thread on bad experiences with a certain product and good experiences. It could be broken up into different sections depending on the specific part.

can we have a most hated company of the month culminating in a most hated company of the year?!?!

Cuz 4wheel parts would win every year!

LOL

[ECGS]

My input:

Detroit products are a pimple on Eatons ass. They have 2 people in the Differential portion of their company tech/sales ect. They do not have drawings of the units, they have likely never installed one, and although they are okay guys are not versed enough in Differentials and their product to offer technical support. The engineers do.........can't talk to those guys and they do not really know anything either except what the drawing is.

Second their was a redesign on the T7.5 Front that is supposed to be compatible with HP ADD system as early version had issues. They specifically call out ADD and Not manual hubs......though the carriers from toyota are interchangeable btwn the two systems. Toyota's Factory carrier ADD system runs a needle bearing in the case to support the shaft. They do this b/c the D-side shaft spins all the time. Unfortunately do to a cast spider gear bore and the fact that needle bearings don't hold up well to side load the needle brgs do fail. however not very common in the T7.5 Differentials but very common in its bigger brother T8CS in the 05+ tacomas, 4runners, and the T9CS from the tundras. ( I believe this to be b/c of steeper angles and heavier components causing higher rates of side load to needle bearing which with Shon UCA problems and lift height likely did cause issue with the TT) We have designed a bushing that fixes the T8CS problem and will implement the same process though different specs for Shon's true trac. This will solve the problem as the bushing is designed for high rate of speed, will handle 500 degrees before breaking down and can handle 7 times the side load of which a needle bearing the same size can handle.
Toyota's Non ADD carrier does not run a needle bearing however the bore that the CV shaft rides in has an oil grove cut all the way around it and has a larger tolerance then what the TT has. So Toyota recognizes that they need clearance and oil when CV shaft spins. Non ADD only spins when in 4wd so there design says yes we need oil and clearance but 4wd is usually slow speed not heat generating and needle brg is not needed. However in the ADD system toyota recognizes the shaft could theoretically be spinning 80 mph at all times and oil groves will not suffice so they install a needle brg. although as stated a needle brg is not sufficient do to the internal design of toyota spider gears. see our you tube video explaining the design flaw in Toyota carrier design. T8CSCV.mov - YouTube

So Eaton mistake is they don't use a bushing, needle bearing or even an oil grove on the new design call out toyota 7.5 ADD diffs. This is a large design flaw and surprisingly shon is the only one to have issue thus far. running steel on steel at any rate of speed is looking for trouble. The reason why they have not been caught on every unit is b/c ultimately in the toyota stock case and the TT the side gear truly supports the shaft. A TT b/c it is a helical posi the side gear is preloaded and tight in the carrier bore and it eliminates the slop that a factory carrier has thus the Side gear takes most of the side load. However there is still spline slop allowing the shaft to move up and down. Do to angle and weight of CV it will ride on the metal of the TT.

The fact that eaton called it a race is a bit of a joke it is the carrier and nothing else (metal) no design element was implemented that I see to protect CV carrier galling and seizing.

I called Eaton after Shon called me and asked them what were the design changes in the new TT? response no idea engineering would know. At this point I told them there was two design flaws. The carrier bore with no protection of shaft and at what distance internally the CV shaft is retained. The CV shaft is retained by a clip it slides past side gear and expands to lock shaft into case. This distance internally determines where the shaft rides on the seal. TT is not the same as factory and can cause seal leakage the only affordable way to fix this issue for end user is to cheat the seal outboard .110.

I told Eaton that I could fix this differential for them, they told me to explain it in detail and fax it in they would see if they could get the engineers to look at it. Sure right after you put me on retainer............

Eaton will never fix these issue unless they have a high rate of return at which point it could take them years to redesign. All in all we do not recomend TT for front clamshell diffs.
ARB's may be expensive but their engineers are top notch and they do years of testing before product release. And frankly if ARB had designs flaws like this and I knew how to fix them they would put me on the phone with their engineering dept. immediately to correct. Eaton just does not care.

Chase@ECGS

[email protected]
Drivetrain Specialists East Coast Gear Supply
919-672-2705
Your source for toyota and all other differential Parts

[Duhockey]

Originally Posted by ECGS

My input:

Detroit products are a pimple on Eatons ass. They have 2 people in the Differential portion of their company tech/sales ect. They do not have drawings of the units, they have likely never installed one, and although they are okay guys are not versed enough in Differentials and their product to offer technical support. The engineers do.........can't talk to those guys and they do not really know anything either except what the drawing is.

Second their was a redesign on the T7.5 Front that is supposed to be compatible with HP ADD system as early version had issues. They specifically call out ADD and Not manual hubs......though the carriers from toyota are interchangeable btwn the two systems. Toyota's Factory carrier ADD system runs a needle bearing in the case to support the shaft. They do this b/c the D-side shaft spins all the time. Unfortunately do to a cast spider gear bore and the fact that needle bearings don't hold up well to side load the needle brgs do fail. however not very common in the T7.5 Differentials but very common in its bigger brother T8CS in the 05+ tacomas, 4runners, and the T9CS from the tundras. ( I believe this to be b/c of steeper angles and heavier components causing higher rates of side load to needle bearing which with Shon UCA problems and lift height likely did cause issue with the TT) We have designed a bushing that fixes the T8CS problem and will implement the same process though different specs for Shon's true trac. This will solve the problem as the bushing is designed for high rate of speed, will handle 500 degrees before breaking down and can handle 7 times the side load of which a needle bearing the same size can handle.
Toyota's Non ADD carrier does not run a needle bearing however the bore that the CV shaft rides in has an oil grove cut all the way around it and has a larger tolerance then what the TT has. So Toyota recognizes that they need clearance and oil when CV shaft spins. Non ADD only spins when in 4wd so there design says yes we need oil and clearance but 4wd is usually slow speed not heat generating and needle brg is not needed. However in the ADD system toyota recognizes the shaft could theoretically be spinning 80 mph at all times and oil groves will not suffice so they install a needle brg. although as stated a needle brg is not sufficient do to the internal design of toyota spider gears. see our you tube video explaining the design flaw in Toyota carrier design. T8CSCV.mov - YouTube

So Eaton mistake is they don't use a bushing, needle bearing or even an oil grove on the new design call out toyota 7.5 ADD diffs. This is a large design flaw and surprisingly shon is the only one to have issue thus far. running steel on steel at any rate of speed is looking for trouble. The reason why they have not been caught on every unit is b/c ultimately in the toyota stock case and the TT the side gear truly supports the shaft. A TT b/c it is a helical posi the side gear is preloaded and tight in the carrier bore and it eliminates the slop that a factory carrier has thus the Side gear takes most of the side load. However there is still spline slop allowing the shaft to move up and down. Do to angle and weight of CV it will ride on the metal of the TT.

The fact that eaton called it a race is a bit of a joke it is the carrier and nothing else (metal) no design element was implemented that I see to protect CV carrier galling and seizing.

I called Eaton after Shon called me and asked them what were the design changes in the new TT? response no idea engineering would know. At this point I told them there was two design flaws. The carrier bore with no protection of shaft and at what distance internally the CV shaft is retained. The CV shaft is retained by a clip it slides past side gear and expands to lock shaft into case. This distance internally determines where the shaft rides on the seal. TT is not the same as factory and can cause seal leakage the only affordable way to fix this issue for end user is to cheat the seal outboard .110.

I told Eaton that I could fix this differential for them, they told me to explain it in detail and fax it in they would see if they could get the engineers to look at it. Sure right after you put me on retainer............

Eaton will never fix these issue unless they have a high rate of return at which point it could take them years to redesign. All in all we do not recomend TT for front clamshell diffs.
ARB's may be expensive but their engineers are top notch and they do years of testing before product release. And frankly if ARB had designs flaws like this and I knew how to fix them they would put me on the phone with their engineering dept. immediately to correct. Eaton just does not care.

Chase@ECGS

[email protected]
Drivetrain Specialists East Coast Gear Supply
919-672-2705
Your source for toyota and all other differential Parts

Thanks so much to Chase at East Coast Gear Supply!

Thanks for fixing the TruTrac and for adding this great info for others to read.

So happy I got all got all my gears, kits and now a modded Trutrac from such a great company!

[Duhockey]

Yesterday Gerdo came over yet again and helped me by rewelding on one of the alignment tabs that fell off.

Then he put on my Panhard Drop bracket and welded on a reinforcement.
Here is the original mount cleaned up.

From 4/24/12

and then he cut and welded on a support to the frame to keep everything secure.

From 4/24/12

Now my axle is centered again! it was starting to get really squirrelly on the road. When the Panhard is at too much of an angle not only does it pull the axle over, but starts to pull it back also... so the wheels actually point more toward the driver side than straight.


Thanks SO MUCH Gerdo!

[Duhockey]

So the TruTrac got back from Chase at ECGS on monday

Here are some pics of the Modified Trutrac and then me putting it back together.

Here is the TruTrac BEFORE the modification:

From 4runner Build

From 4runner Build

And then Here is the TruTrac with the new bearing AFTER modification:

From 4runner Build

From 4runner Build

From 4runner Build

So I started putting it back together...

Keep in mind, I got BRAND NEW 5.29 Nitro gears now also...

From 4runner Build

From 4runner Build

and then put the Diff back in the truck, filled her up with fluid and she is ready to go.

Here is a pic of her already for her first test drive.

From 4runner Build

I need to put back on the roof rack and Buds and go wheeling!

So since I blew the diff back in Sept/Oct,
1.I have replaced both front and rear gears with 5.29 Nitro gears,
2.put a Trutrac in the front diff,
3.replaced the Inner Tie rod ends with Taco ones
4. Replaced Outer Tie rod ends with Taco ones.
5. Replaced the LBJ with Taco ones.
6. Replaced LCA bushings
7. Had Panhard Drop welded in.
8. Replaced Rear Lower control arms with ones from Steezemcqueen sporting Toytec LCA skids
9. repainted and reinstalled my Lotus R-CAMS (Rear Control Arm Mount Skid)
10.repainted my Budbuilt front skid.
11. rewelded my rear upper control arm and reinstalled.
12. Bought and painted my new 20lb C02 tank
13. Had CVJ axle rethread one CV axle end and repair damage from the TruTrac on another.


Big thanks to Anthony Perez, Anthony Thomas (gears), Chase from ECGS, Gerdo from Lil Skips Offroad, Mark C., Micah H, Lumpskie, Dylan aka SteezeMcqueen and Jeff aka Sn0wrunner from Toytec, Glen Y. from Lotus Development and Sean from CVJ Axle

Every single one of the above people assisted in diagnosing/fixing/supplying parts/help/labor etc.

I got the 4runner aligned and she is running great!

Ready for the trails again!

[FoneRunner]

I love the detail in this build thread! Have you had a chance to test it on a trail yet? I need to hear how that new gear ratio is treating you!

[Duhockey]

Originally Posted by FoneRunner

I love the detail in this build thread! Have you had a chance to test it on a trail yet? I need to hear how that new gear ratio is treating you!

Thanks! I try to be detailed, I wonder if anyone actually reads it. Just trying to help others not have the problems that I have run into.

The 5.29s are awesome around town. Even with the 33's. I dont have a problem with them up to 70-75.

70mph is about 3400RPMs 75 is about 3600, so anything in that range for too long Im sure will go thru gas... I havent had a full tank of highway driving yet since i put them in. I am wondering a bit about heading to Moab and some of the 75MPH section that everyone does 80+ on.

Once I try them and the TruTrac out with some rock crawling Ill let you know. Im anticipating the crawl ratio should be pretty good based on the numbers Ive seen.

I know people say that its not that big of a difference, they are wrong. going from 4.10 to 4.88 may not be, but going from 4.10 to 5.29 is very noticeable.

But again, Since this is not my DD, No probs.

[FrankM23]

BEAST MODE! sucks about the diff. I was a potential buyer until I read about your troubles. Anyways, glad you got it worked out.

[Duhockey]

Originally Posted by FrankM23

BEAST MODE! sucks about the diff. I was a potential buyer until I read about your troubles. Anyways, glad you got it worked out.

For what its worth, Ill remind you, I chose to have Chase modify the TruTrac rather than throw in the flag.

I still believe in the Trutrac for its ability. Both LINY4runner and Fonerunner have had no problems with it and love the added capability.

Remember, its also Zero maintenance, and clutchless, unlike other lockers.

When I finally figured out what the problem was, Chase at ECGS and I went over options and the little $$ I had to spend to send it to him to add that bearing was nothing compared to upgrading to an ARB.

Furthermore, I like the idea of an ARB in the back with the Straight axle, but not so much in the front of an IFS. I think the Trutrac combined with my manual transmission is a better choice than an ARB and an auto up front. Knock on wood, but Steeze, Gerdo and I all have manuals and have yet to blow a cv...

Snowrunner(open diff) and Yoshida(F+R ARB) (both of them autos) together have probably blown more than 20 in the last year.

I chose to spend the extra $$ to gain the Trutracs capability, over keeping an open diff.

[Duhockey]

Just some pics I took yesterday...

From Cars

From Cars

From Cars

From Cars

From Cars

The shadows in this one bug me, but oh well...

From Cars

this ones a little better

From Cars

[chasklink]

Looking good! Glad to hear it is back together! If you don't me asking what did it cost you to put in the trutrac with mods? Charlie K.