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Old 09-11-2006, 02:40 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by sbbamafan
There simply isn't going to be a viable diesel passenger market as long as legislation and taxes pander to the oil companies that want to sell gas.
I think you found the culprit. In most countries, diesel has less tax because people who use it are wasting less oil to produce fuel.

In the U.S., it's the exact contrary.
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Old 09-11-2006, 06:29 PM #17
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diesel news

In Colorado the state tax for gas and/or diesel is 22 cents a gal. The last time I checked the US tax was 18.5 cents/gal. Or a total of 40.5 cents/gal. Not a huge part of the 3 dollars a gal price. I don't think it is taxes that make diesel more than gasoline. It could be that it takes more crude oil to make a gal of diesel than a gal of gasoline.
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:01 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by sbbamafan
The taxes are what is killing the passenger diesel in the US. I have a Ford diesel and my T4R. Today, for example in Atlanta, Unleaded regular is +/-2.37. diesel is +/-2.83. This is rediculous. As one of the earlier posts said, diesel is 25% less expensive to produce. I'm not certain of the number but I do know it is a substantial percentage and this seems consistant with other numbers Ive heard over the years. That being said, diesel should cost +/-1.78 today, not 2.83.

There simply isn't going to be a viable diesel passenger market as long as legislation and taxes pander to the oil companies that want to sell gas. Jeep has already cancelled production of the Liberty diesel. Until fuel prices stabilize people will not buy the Cherokee, no matter how good it might be. I predict the Cherokee diesel to be short-lived too.

As for what one of the earlier posts said, I think all the diesel available in the US is now the low-sulpher variety. Furthermore, diesels are more flexible than gas engines and run easily on WVO, or other blends of diesel, etc. Most people don;t realize it but when the diesel was invented it was made to run on straight peanut oil. They are a great engine and with modern technology they are even better.

Enough of my soap box...but it is just another thing that govenment has f'd up.
The federal excise tax on diesel is 6 cents per gallon higher than gasoline, and one cent of that difference is mandated for a leaking ground storage tank trust fund. Georgia state taxes one diesel and gasoline are identical.

Taxes do not add up to the 46 cent difference you posted.

-Eric
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:18 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Offroader
I think you found the culprit. In most countries, diesel has less tax because people who use it are wasting less oil to produce fuel.

In the U.S., it's the exact contrary.
The taxation differences between gasoline and diesel at a federal level are only 6 cents per gallon, that is a drop in the bucket compared to $3 per gallon price. Most of the states the taxes are the same or very close, the only state I found that had grossly higher diesel taxes was Florida with about 13 cents more tax on diesel. Some states have lower taxes on diesel.

Here is an article that sheds some light on this discussion.
Article

State Fuel Taxes

BTW, the diesel price list for Europe you posted is over a year old. The following page is from July this year and shows the UK as having a higher price for diesel than gasoline as pipspeak stated from personal experience.

Europe Diesel prices from July 2006


-Eric
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Old 09-11-2006, 07:33 PM #20
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Last month's issue of C&D had an article on the BMW 330D (diesel) and according to the article, certain states including CA will have a new stricter clean air emission regulation that will pretty much prohibit sales of diesel cars (not trucks) in that state. The only one that will pass the new standard (to my knowledge) is the MB diesel E-Class which has a new CAT system which makes it cleaner burning. Therefore, it's the only diesel car available for '07 in CA, unless I'm mistaken.
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Old 09-11-2006, 08:10 PM #21
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You're right about the Mercedes Bluetec being the cleanest diesel car available, but unfortunately it still isn't clean enough for California, New York, Massachusetts, Vermont, or Maine--even with the ultra-low sulphur fuel set to become standard next month.

DCX plans to use the Bluetec engine in other cars like the Grand Cherokee, and there new urea system may be clean enough to pass in 2008. The EPA hasn't approved it yet, though. The difficulty of meeting 50-state pollution standards is really main reason we don't have diesel vehicles here.
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Old 09-11-2006, 08:30 PM #22
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Re: Been there, done that

Quote:
Originally posted by Offroader
Toyota already makes sophisticate direct injection turbodiesels, and they offer them all around the world.
Except in the U.S.

They just have to decide to import them.
Exactly... and if I remember correctly, the hood scoop that we know on our Sport Editions was actually used functionally on the diesel versions abroad. The air intake on those engines is directly on top, right under the scoop. Pretty cool if you ask me. No need for a cold air intake!
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Old 09-12-2006, 05:33 AM #23
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California, Maine, Massachussets, New York and Vermont. The high emissions standards required by these five states represent a major hurdle for any manufacturer that plans to introduce diesels-powered light-duty vehicles in the U.S. Even DaimlerChrysler has not meet these standards.

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Old 09-12-2006, 07:43 AM #24
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Re: diesel news

Quote:
Originally posted by halw
It could be that it takes more crude oil to make a gal of diesel than a gal of gasoline.
Nope, it actually doesn't.
Gasoline is more refined. The more you refine it, the less from the original gallon of oil you will have.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:46 AM #25
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Re: Re: Been there, done that

Quote:
Originally posted by 4RunnerRon
Exactly... and if I remember correctly, the hood scoop that we know on our Sport Editions was actually used functionally on the diesel versions abroad. The air intake on those engines is directly on top, right under the scoop. Pretty cool if you ask me. No need for a cold air intake!
Wrong. The air intake is in the usual place.

The hood scoop is to feed air into the Intercooler.
Here's a pic.
Attached Images
Diesel News-intercooler-jpg 
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Old 09-12-2006, 08:38 AM #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by the_bear
The following page is from July this year and shows the UK as having a higher price for diesel than gasoline as pipspeak stated from personal experience.

Europe Diesel prices from July 2006


-Eric

You're right. From 27 countries listed, the UK, Latvia, Northern Ireland, Switzerland and Slovakia are the only ones where Diesel is more expensive than gasoline.

From your list, here are some other countries:

Netherlands: Diesel is 34.6% cheaper than gasoline
Finland: 32.4%
Belgium: 28.7%
Portugal: 23.9%
Luxembourg: 22.1%
Germany: 18.9%
France: 17.0%
Denmark: 15.6%
Spain: 12.0%
Norway: 10.8%

But I also know that Diesel fuel is less taxed because it's considered a non-luxury item, important for the economy in agriculture, transportation, industry, etc...
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Old 09-12-2006, 09:27 AM #27
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Re: diesel news

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by halw
It could be that it takes more crude oil to make a gal of diesel than a gal of gasoline.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Nope, it actually doesn't.
Gasoline is more refined. The more you refine it, the less from the original gallon of oil you will have.


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Actually it does. Yes gasoline is more highly refined. But you get less diesel than gasoline from a quantity of crude. It may seem wrong but it is not. Think of the energy content. Diesel has more energy.
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Old 09-12-2006, 02:32 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Offroader
But I also know that Diesel fuel is less taxed because it's considered a non-luxury item, important for the economy in agriculture, transportation, industry, etc...
I think that depends on the country. The UK has a two-tier tax system for diesel, as I believe some other countries do. The cleaner consumer diesel is as havily taxed as gasoline but there is also commercial diesel fuel (known as red diesel) used in farm equipment and heavy machinery that is taxed less and a lot cheaper.

In some rural areas the police will actually spot check that people aren't illegally using red diesel by dipping their tanks (or removing a plug) to see if the telltale red dye is there or not. There's a heavy fine for using red diesel in passenger vehicles.
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Old 09-12-2006, 07:01 PM #29
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Offroader...

What kind of fuel mileage are you getting? Have you used Biodiesel yet, any plans to?

For all the non-diesel folks. Biodiesel is not the same as Vegetable Oil (SVO, WVO). Biodiesel does not require any conversion kits and is basically the chemical equivalent of D2. It does cloud at lower temps, so you'd have to run blends at colder temps.

There are plenty of Biodiesel explanations on the web that are millions of times better than mine so look it up! :-)

We love our little oil burner Jetta TDI 40 city / 50 highway...running on B20.

Oh and offroad diesel is usually high sulfer and will totally screw up the modern diesel engine of an onroad vehicle.
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Old 09-12-2006, 09:30 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Roams001
Offroader...

What kind of fuel mileage are you getting? Have you used Biodiesel yet, any plans to?
My onboard computer usually reads 7.5 to 8 liters per 100km in highway, as long as I drive at 50-60mph.

That's roughly 30 to 32 mpg. Our highways are not flat, though. On flat portions of the highway I usually get 35 mpg.

But remember, the engine in my 4Runner is not Common Rail or Direct Injection. A direct injection engine gets a 20% increase in power and fuel economy.

For example, the engine in my 4Runner has 129hp. The Direct Injection version they used to put in the Hilux Surf (Japanese domestic version of the T4R) generated 168hp with the same engine displacement (3.0 liter).

But due to the low quality, high-sulfur content diesel fuel available in third world countries like where I live, we get a traditional turbodiesel engine.

To counteract the effects of sulfur, I use XP3, a fuel additive that disperses water in fuel. Remember that under high pressure and temperature, Sulfur and water form sulfuric acid, which slowly corrodes the engine.

Here's a Caribbean Specification page for the 4Runner:

Toyota 4Runner Caribbean Specification

Here's a pic of the TurboDiesel version's rear. The tailpipe is stainless steel, and it points downward. It's the only exterior difference.

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Last edited by Offroader; 09-12-2006 at 09:37 PM.
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