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Old 02-21-2019, 01:09 PM #16
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Not my personal experience, I don’t have a big brake kit, or really change up brakes on anything I own yet…

I have a friend who owns a Tacoma and wheels pretty aggressively… and he upgraded to some Tundra brakes and reported a noticeable increase in performance / holding power.

Anza Borrego on the Heart Attack hill he was “standing on his brakes” with the old setup and requires less effort now to do the same.

Even if I was to think about leverage, and the increased size of the rotor, you essentially have more leverage / holding power per wheel. From that physics standpoint, I can understand why someone would want larger brakes or why it would increase performance. The thermal envelop standpoint also makes plenty of sense to me too.

Again, not my personal experience, but I can see how this would be true.

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Old 02-21-2019, 03:00 PM #17
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My perspective; since you can already lock up the tires on dry concrete, I've done it before even with 35's, a 'big brake kit' won't stop you faster. Braking is a function of the ABS system, tires/tread compound, and vehicle weight. Nothing more.

However, I've noticed brake fade on my truck. Only when driving down Colorado mountains, and I have the larger sport brakes and used transmission downshifting where possible. For those times larger/cooler brakes would help. Making sure you have good fluid and pads would probably help too.

Peace of mind with beefier components and SS pistons that might help with seizing issues are also pluses.
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Old 02-21-2019, 03:09 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_C View Post
Maybe he's just trying to get his post count up quickly


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumbo View Post
I have a friend who owns a Tacoma and wheels pretty aggressively… and he upgraded to some Tundra brakes and reported a noticeable increase in performance / holding power.

Anza Borrego on the Heart Attack hill he was “standing on his brakes” with the old setup and requires less effort now to do the same.

Even if I was to think about leverage, and the increased size of the rotor, you essentially have more leverage / holding power per wheel. From that physics standpoint, I can understand why someone would want larger brakes or why it would increase performance.
If he increased his rotor size then sure it would require less effort on his pedal to achieve the same torque. How much less effort? Not much - pad type will make much more of a difference.

Did he upgrade his brake lines? New fluid? Different set of pads?


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Again, it’s to slow the vehicle down from speed. Larger rotors, bigger calipers, bigger pads, more pistons, translates to improvement in braking performance period.

Of note, the rotors the OP linked have aluminum hats. They are larger and probably weigh less than stock.
OK I'll spell it out then.

PISTON COUNT does not improve stopping power - it simply distributes the same force more evenly.

BRAKE PAD SIZE also does not effect stopping power. The coefficient of friction law does not rely on the surface area of the materials involved; only with the type of materials involved. Increased pad size is to improve heat dissipation. Remember what I said about pad type - friction.

How much less stopping distance does a 20mm larger rotor gain from 80-0 mph stand-on-brakes stop? I don't want to do the math to be honest, but with perfect traction (not gonna happen) it would be about a half a foot on your coupe. Since you wont have perfect traction on street tires on the street, distance will come down to tires and vehicle safety systems. Not rotor size.

The rotor hats might weigh less, but the rotor itself and the calipers are heavier. That's the point. They better deal with heat that way. You increase un-sprung weight by adding heavier big brakes - which is a performance deficit. Every pound un-sprung is equal to about 10 pounds extra cabin weight that your suspension has to deal with over every bump.

Yes your improving braking "performance" if you get a larger set of brakes. But what is the point if the performance being gained is not even usable. What I am saying is you will exceed your tires capabilities before your brakes unless your constantly hammering on your brakes consistently in a short period of time. Anything in between is just your perception of pedal firmness and feel.

I know it's hard to believe that the big brake kits used on racing vehicles won’t increase stopping power on their own street vehicles as well. Sorry.

Yeah yeah call me a drag, sure. I'm trying to help people understand the functionality of their OEM brake performance and hopefully help save people from spending A LOT of money where it's absolutely not necessary from a "performance" stand-point in a place where people come together for technical discussion, not a party.
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Old 02-21-2019, 03:37 PM #19
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I read your posts over again. We seem to be saying the same things. We agree that there is no benefit during stand on the brakes emergency braking.

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Originally Posted by JoeToyota View Post




If he increased his rotor size then sure it would require less effort on his pedal to achieve the same torque. How much less effort? Not much - pad type will make more of a difference.

Did he upgrade his brake lines? New fluid? Different set of pads?




OK I'll spell it out then.

PISTON COUNT does not improve stopping power - it simply distributes the same force more evenly.

BRAKE PAD SIZE also does not effect stopping power. The coefficient of friction law does not rely on the surface area of the materials involved; only with the type of materials involved. Increased pad size is to improve heat dissipation. Remember what I said about pad type - friction.

How much less stopping distance does a 20mm larger rotor gain from 80-0 mph stand-on-brakes stop? I don't want to do the math to be honest, but with perfect traction (not gonna happen) it would it would be about a half a foot on your coupe. Since you wont have perfect traction on street tires on the street, distance will come down to tires and vehicle safety systems. Not rotor size.

The rotor hats might weigh less, but the rotor itself and the calipers are heavier. That's the point. They better deal with heat that way. You increase un-sprung weight by adding heavier big brakes - which is a performance deficit. Every pound un-sprung is equal to about 10 pounds extra cabin weight that your suspension has to deal with over every bump.

Yes your improving braking "performance" if you get a larger set of brakes. But what is the point if the performance being gained is not even usable. What I am saying is you will exceed your tires capabilities before your brakes unless your constantly hammering on your brakes consistently in a short period of time. Anything in between is just your perception of pedal firmness and feel.

I know it's hard to believe that the big brake kits used on racing vehicles won’t increase stopping power on their own street vehicles as well. Sorry.

Yeah yeah call me a drag, sure. I'm trying to help people understand the functionality of their OEM brake performance and hopefully help save people from spending A LOT of money where it's absolutely not necessary from a "performance" stand-point.
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Old 02-21-2019, 03:59 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formidable View Post
............SLOWING the vehicle down from speed...........

.....The reason people upgrade is to slow the vehicle down from speed...

.....Obviously, your ability to slow the vehicle down has a huge impact on where your brake zone is and resultant entrance speed into any turn regardless if you are on or off the track......

.....progressive feel of a bigger brake system and it’s effects on SLOWING the vehicle can be appreciated on the road... especially when the rig is fitted with trail armor, gear, and towing a 4K lb trailer......
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......It’s not to improve stopping under emergency conditions. Its not for heat dissipation either. Again, it’s to slow the vehicle down from speed. Larger rotors, bigger calipers, bigger pads, more pistons, translates to improvement in braking performance period.
Your words here give the impression that you will stop faster with bigger brakes on some hypothetical corner and that's why people upgrade. Am I wrong?

I am saying that they wont stop your car faster due to every single reason I've already mentioned. Summary: Effectively if you don't do it for heat dissipation then you are doing it for looks and pedal feel. Simple as that.
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:10 PM #21
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Stopping: Function of your tire and ABS system.
Slowing: Function of your vehicle’s weight and the brakes ability to absorb the kinetic energy and dissipate heat as you’ve stated.

None of the above I am refuting. With larger brakes there is without a doubt a tangible difference in pedal feel and the ability to slow the car down from speed at partial pressure.

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Your words here give the impression that you will stop faster with bigger brakes on some hypothetical corner and that's why people upgrade. Am I wrong?

I am saying that they wont stop your car faster due to every single reason I've already mentioned. Summary: Effectively if you don't do it for heat dissipation then you are doing it for looks. Simple as that.
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:37 PM #22
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Quote:
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Stopping: Function of your tire and ABS system.
Slowing: Function of your vehicle’s weight and the brakes ability to absorb the kinetic energy and dissipate heat as you’ve stated.

None of the above I am refuting. With larger brakes there is without a doubt a tangible difference in pedal feel and the ability to slow the car down from speed at partial pressure.
The benefits of a larger rotor stopping a car from high speed to a stop is minimal. At partial pressure to just slow the car down a little bit the benefit is nearly indistinguishable. That's from a hardcore racing stand-point, which we are absolutely not close to with our 4runner. All other things equal; everything you feel is just that - feel. The physics speaks for itself.
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Old 02-21-2019, 06:13 PM #23
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Threshold braking on a big brake kit with larger rotors, aluminum hats, 6 pot calipers will outperform threshold braking on OEM brakes on the exact same vehicle any day of the week. Go ask your track instructor which he prefers to drive. LOL

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The benefits of a larger rotor stopping a car from high speed to a stop is minimal. At partial pressure to just slow the car down a little bit the benefit is nearly indistinguishable. That's from a hardcore racing stand-point, which we are absolutely not close to with our 4runner. All other things equal; everything you feel is just that - feel. The physics speaks for itself.
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Old 02-21-2019, 06:16 PM #24
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Quote:
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Wilwood released their own big brake kits Wilwood Disc Brakes - 2005 Toyota 4Runner All - Front Brake Kit No.: 140-14577-DR:
- Two different rotor sizes, 12.88" and 14 in either slotted or drilled + slotted
- 6-piston calipers, same ones regardless of rotor size
- List price is a little over $1850 and change but Summit Racing and Jegs has the 12.88" slotted rotor kits for $1520 and change.

Unlike the RR Racing kit that also uses Wilwood calipers (different line, too Aero6 vs Superlite) Wiwood's kits come standard with brake lines and their own 2-piece rotors instead of 5th-gen spec (but not OEM Toyota) rotors.
We offer the 140-14577-DR for $1450 delivered
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Old 02-21-2019, 06:48 PM #25
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i dont know whats more bananas: the price or the physics
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:01 PM #26
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Threshold braking on a big brake kit with larger rotors, aluminum hats, 6 pot calipers will outperform threshold braking on OEM brakes on the exact same vehicle any day of the week. Go ask your track instructor which he prefers to drive. LOL

Not unless you have the proper pad compound with a HIGHER coefficient of friction, and sure your big kit will be able to sustain that for longer due to the increased heat capabilities of the larger system. Your 6 pots don't add more force, your hats don't add more force. Sure your marginally larger rotors do add a bit of torque, but the key here is the friction between the pad and the rotor. Have you been listening?

Oh threshold braking? Like a technique used to put the tire at the limit or threshold of it's capabilities? That's a term to describe the threshold of the braking limit that the tires provide. Because your brakes are outperforming your tires and you must moderate that with your technique to get the maximum out of the tires. We are doing circles here now buddy.
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:09 PM #27
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Threshold braking is the limit by which you do NOT engage the ABS or lock the tires. There is a difference whether you want to admit it or not. Go ask any track instructor. Seriously.

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It will if you have the proper pad compound with a HIGHER coefficient of friction, and you will be able to sustain that for longer due to the increased heat capabilities of the system. Your 6 pots dont add more force, your hats dont add more force. Sure your rotors do add a bit of torque, but the key here is the friction between the pad and the rotor. Have you been listening?

Oh threshold braking? Like a technique used to put the tire at the limit or threshold of it's capabilities? That's a term to describe the threshold of the braking limit that the tires provide. Because your brakes are outperforming your tires. We are doing circles here now buddy.
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:18 PM #28
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OK, to stop the beating of the dead horse, nobody is going to argue much over some of the points made. That being said the truth is that most of us upgrade to the BBK is to rid ourselves of the OEM caliper because it is not a matter of if, but when, your calipers will seize up. Look it up. It's a notorious Toyota truck issue. Some of us will simply keep replacing oem for oem, some - like myself - say screw it and go with a BBK.

At this point I have no regrets upgrading and I can say without question these are an improvement over stock in day-to-day driving. I would go so far as to say the pedal and braking feel are on par with that of an M car (and I know this). No way would I compare it to say it stops as fast, there's just simple physics of weight / grip that can't compare. However it will throw you at the dash like the originals never did.

Does it feel better - yes. Does it brake better - definitely. Was it worth it - depends on who you ask, for me yes.
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:21 PM #29
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Quote:
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Threshold braking is the limit by which you do NOT engage the ABS or lock the tires.
Now tell me what would cause the abs to engage or lock up the tires? Drum roll...... Braking too hard.
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:31 PM #30
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has anyone figured out why these calipers seize so often?
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