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Old 11-16-2019, 12:20 PM #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebirdguy View Post
its very easy to do it yourself, especially with all the write ups here & vids on youtube.

also, check into the details of that $97 dealer fluid exchange, a full exchange usually runs almost double that price at the dealer. think they might just be doing a drain & fill for $97... & thats only ~3qts. 3qts for $97 is a SCAM! you can do a drain & fill in about 15 minutes & maybe $25-30 in WS fluid.

also do some research for yourself to decide if you want to use WS again... its been proven that WS is a non synthetic fluid & doesnt do too well with heat. maxlife & others are full synthetic & as good or better than WS. yes there are still the alarmists that think you NEED to use WS or your trans will explode... but thats not the case at all. some even report shudder issues went away with full maxlife exchanges.
I didnt know that...so the options from dealer are drain/fill, exchange, and flush? Thanks. They told me not the flush obviously and quoted me the $97 for drain and fill I guess which might be all im really looking to do.
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Old 11-16-2019, 02:48 PM #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebirdguy View Post
its very easy to do it yourself, especially with all the write ups here & vids on youtube.

also, check into the details of that $97 dealer fluid exchange, a full exchange usually runs almost double that price at the dealer. think they might just be doing a drain & fill for $97... & thats only ~3qts. 3qts for $97 is a SCAM! you can do a drain & fill in about 15 minutes & maybe $25-30 in WS fluid.

also do some research for yourself to decide if you want to use WS again... its been proven that WS is a non synthetic fluid & doesnt do too well with heat. maxlife & others are full synthetic & as good or better than WS. yes there are still the alarmists that think you NEED to use WS or your trans will explode... but thats not the case at all. some even report shudder issues went away with full maxlife exchanges.

Help me out here, I‘ve been following the WS discussion since buying my 4R in 2014 and don’t recall anything like this. What’s your source?

Also, Maxlife claims compatibility w/ WS and with a bunch of other ATFs too. I’m not an alarmist by any stretch, just reluctant to trust a “one size fits all” approach with something like transmission fluid, especially when people who study such things for a living recommend against it. What does that mean? Watch this video from the 37:50 mark before deciding between WS and any alternative fluid.
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Old 11-16-2019, 04:37 PM #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hinmo24t View Post
I didnt know that...so the options from dealer are drain/fill, exchange, and flush? Thanks. They told me not the flush obviously and quoted me the $97 for drain and fill I guess which might be all im really looking to do.


I bought two of these. A little pricey but I figured Iíd replace the fluid with what itís had for 145k miles.


Toyota 6 Pack 00289-ATFWS Automatic Transmission Fluid, 192 Ounces, 6 Pack, 192 Ounces, 6 Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BZ2HZ6W..._gWf0DbPKMYGMM

Other than this you need some clear hose, I got like 6í worth from amazon for like $10 and a fitting to connect to the hose, and a funnel. This job is like 2 out of 10 bananas. Seriously itís that easy. Plus youíll know you swapped all the fluid versus whatever the dealer is gonna do, which is probably drain the pan (~3 quarts) and refill only those three quarts.


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Old 11-16-2019, 04:59 PM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hinmo24t View Post
I didnt know that...so the options from dealer are drain/fill, exchange, and flush? Thanks. They told me not the flush obviously and quoted me the $97 for drain and fill I guess which might be all im really looking to do.
usually its just a drain/fill or exchange, some say a true flush on high mileage engines can cause issues. the trans takes like 13qts of fluid so a drain & fill is only replacing a small amount of fluid. you can do a few over a couple weeks time to get more new fluid in there. but the exchange using the transmissions pump to pump out old while you refill with new is very easy, you just need a jug, a clear hose & a funnel. search 4runner transmission fluid change on youtube or here to see how easy it is. either way you go will be good for teh trans.
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Old 11-16-2019, 06:24 PM #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesky 07 View Post
Help me out here, I‘ve been following the WS discussion since buying my 4R in 2014 and don’t recall anything like this. What’s your source?

Also, Maxlife claims compatibility w/ WS and with a bunch of other ATFs too. I’m not an alarmist by any stretch, just reluctant to trust a “one size fits all” approach with something like transmission fluid, especially when people who study such things for a living recommend against it. What does that mean? Watch this video from the 37:50 mark before deciding between WS and any alternative fluid.
sure. i followed & researched the ws vs maxlife thing too for quite awhile before i made the decision to use maxlife. my sources come mainly from searches on here & on other toyota forums like tacomas that use the same trans. there are countless people who used maxlife & said it was excellent & sometimes even fixed or improved problems with shifting or shudder etc. & of all the searches ive done, i have not read one single negative feedback on using maxlife in our toyotas or any other vehicles that claim they need the factory fluids like hondas. im sure there are some out there, but 9 out of 10 are all happy & running fine on maxlife & there are no catastrophic failures that ive ever seen related to using maxlife.

the non synthetic WS thing is pretty common, i could say "do a search" like some do, but what i found was there are multiple claims people have found msds info in cases or elsewhere saying its a standard base oil. another guy, think hes a member here or the tacoma forums, wrote a big long thing about testing it & showed it burned very quick at below average temps, like a common fluid. & he gets into how when toyota changed to WS & sealed trans there was some questionable reason behind it, i forget the specifics now but its out there to read on here or a google search. & one of the best sources for any automotive fluids info is a popular website called bobistheoilguy, members there have done all kinds of tests on oils & other fluids. there are numerous threads about maxlife & WS, maxlife is always top rated.

i agree the one size fits all sounds weird but its kinda the same as how they can make new fluids meet new specs but still be backward compatible like dex1-3, i bet a bunch of people in the 80s & 90s said, "no way im using that new fangled dex 3, my car calls for dex 2 only!" LOL. & ive seen that guy on youtube you linked to, hes an "alarmists"... he says nothing scientific & makes fun of synthetics calling it "magical" & laughing, nothing credible about what he says. he obvioulsy doesnt like maxlife & says theres no licenses... licenses are mostly bought from companies, all that means is valvoline didnt pay toyotas license fee or toyota wont license any other fluids because they want to sell you theirs?? they also dont have a GM license listed, doesnt mean it not acceptable for all previous dex specs.

personally, i have no problem trusting a major company like valvoline, who does this for a living, to engineer a trans fluid that is capable of handling multiple applications. many other big companies like amsoil offer WS compatible & acceptable trans fluids & have spent lots of money & time on the fluid development to be sure it wont harm anything & will perform to meet the requirements of the trans. they would not risk the financial loss & lawsuits if the fluid wasnt 100% safe to use.

also if WS was synthetic, i would think toyota would state that on the bottle. they sell synthetic & normal oil, but tell you when its synthetic & charge more for it.. they offer normal t4 trans fluid so if WS was a synthetic you'd think they would say that in big letters. toyota doesnt make their own fluids, its made by one of the major lubrication companies to the specs of the transmission.

aside from what i called alarmists & people with more opinions than knowledge, or the ones who just blindly follow the owners manual & think they absolutely need to use only toyota branded oils or coolant etc... i think most people with any automotive mechanical backgrounds understand that a quality brand fluid rated for or compatible with other vehicles & fluids are perfectly fine to use.

im not saying dont use WS, just saying what i used & how it performed & why i decided to use it.

Last edited by firebirdguy; 11-17-2019 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 08:14 PM #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebirdguy View Post
usually its just a drain/fill or exchange, some say a true flush on high mileage engines can cause issues. the trans takes like 13qts of fluid so a drain & fill is only replacing a small amount of fluid. you can do a few over a couple weeks time to get more new fluid in there. but the exchange using the transmissions pump to pump out old while you refill with new is very easy, you just need a jug, a clear hose & a funnel. search 4runner transmission fluid change on youtube or here to see how easy it is. either way you go will be good for teh trans.
Thanks. Im tempted to for sure and i hear you. Essentially they cant just drain and fill more than about 25% of the fluid at the dealer visit it seems...
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:59 AM #67
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@firebirdguy , the guy on YT isnít just some yahoo, heís a university professor who has spent his career studying this stuff. In any case, I think his point is that ďsyntheticĒ doesnít necessarily mean ďbetter.Ē The Blackstone Labs crew says the same thing about oil:

==
Whatís the best oil to use?
Ah, the million dollar question. We are an independent lab, so we donít make recommendations. It has been our experience that oil is oil, and either petroleum or synthetic-based oil will work well for just about any engine.
==

I also take negative opinions of WS with a grain of salt b/c 1) it performs well for years in millions of vehicles, most of whose owners never bother to service the transmissions, including many thousands of 4th Gen owners who run their rigs through the wringer on road and off, and 2) those opinions appear to be largely based on anecdotal evidence.

I donít recall any claim that WS was synthetic and that doesnít matter to me anyway.

Agree that people neednít blindly follow the owners manual and use manufacturer brands only, but they will do well to pay attention to the required type and/or formulation for each system. The 4th Gen power steering using ATF is one example. I had never heard of a vehicle using ATF as PS fluid before getting a 4R and it still strikes me as odd.

Iím not talking down Maxlife, Valvoline is a trustworthy company that makes fine products. Maybe Maxlife really can be the best fluid for a European sports car, a Japanese SUV, a GM crossover, & a bunch of other vehicles too. If so, more power to them.

Iím also not recommending WS, just explaining the reasoning behind my personal choice to use it: I know it works.
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Old 11-17-2019, 01:05 AM #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by montijo505 View Post
I bought two of these. A little pricey but I figured Iíd replace the fluid with what itís had for 145k miles.


Toyota 6 Pack 00289-ATFWS Automatic Transmission Fluid, 192 Ounces, 6 Pack, 192 Ounces, 6 Pack https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07BZ2HZ6W..._gWf0DbPKMYGMM

Other than this you need some clear hose, I got like 6í worth from amazon for like $10 and a fitting to connect to the hose, and a funnel. This job is like 2 out of 10 bananas. Seriously itís that easy. Plus youíll know you swapped all the fluid versus whatever the dealer is gonna do, which is probably drain the pan (~3 quarts) and refill only those three quarts.


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Thanks for the link. That seller also offers a 12-pack of WS for $111, a significant savings over buying 2 of the 6-packs. Maybe that option only recently became available since sellers sometimes add & delete such choices.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:17 PM #69
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Originally Posted by BC4runner06 View Post
You will DEFINITELY need a new gasket. I just had all of this done at a shop as it was there for something else. Pan drop, filter replaced, new gasket and fluid.

In the end, with 2 hours labour, new filter (screen) and gasket, plus cost of fluid, cost me $400 CAD

Vehicle doesn't shudder anymore and shifting is way better, but next time I would have done the method in the original post and saved myself some bucks.
With a new screen, pan cleaned, old debris removed and fluid exchange that is a decent price. Better to have the unit serviced correctly than paying for a tow job plus a repair bill.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:36 PM #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesky 07 View Post
@firebirdguy , the guy on YT isn’t just some yahoo, he’s a university professor who has spent his career studying this stuff. In any case, I think his point is that “synthetic” doesn’t necessarily mean “better.” The Blackstone Labs crew says the same thing about oil:

==
What’s the best oil to use?
Ah, the million dollar question. We are an independent lab, so we don’t make recommendations. It has been our experience that oil is oil, and either petroleum or synthetic-based oil will work well for just about any engine.
==

I also take negative opinions of WS with a grain of salt b/c 1) it performs well for years in millions of vehicles, most of whose owners never bother to service the transmissions, including many thousands of 4th Gen owners who run their rigs through the wringer on road and off, and 2) those opinions appear to be largely based on anecdotal evidence.

I don’t recall any claim that WS was synthetic and that doesn’t matter to me anyway.

Agree that people needn’t blindly follow the owners manual and use manufacturer brands only, but they will do well to pay attention to the required type and/or formulation for each system. The 4th Gen power steering using ATF is one example. I had never heard of a vehicle using ATF as PS fluid before getting a 4R and it still strikes me as odd.

I’m not talking down Maxlife, Valvoline is a trustworthy company that makes fine products. Maybe Maxlife really can be the best fluid for a European sports car, a Japanese SUV, a GM crossover, & a bunch of other vehicles too. If so, more power to them.

I’m also not recommending WS, just explaining the reasoning behind my personal choice to use it: I know it works.
thats fine if the YT guy is professor, but being college educated means very little, you can be book smart but still be real world experience ignorant! but if he is seriously laughing at maxlife or synthetics in general & basing his points on having no licenses then that shows he isnt that smart or has flawed reasoning when it comes to lubricants... & because of that i dont trust his "opinion" on fluids in general. & fact is the entire vid is just his opinions, no scientific facts or testing mentioned at all.

i agree that for oil, synthetic isnt really "needed" but it is better in certain aspects & will last longer than a conventional, mainly for people who do extended change intervals, or high heat turbo applications etc. ive read many blackstone & other labs analysis results & comments & trust what they say.

however, for trans fluids, i think synthetic has a big benefit in that it will stand up to heat much better than a conventional trans fluid, & heat is what kills transmissions. if you tow or do other high heat abuse then its definitely better than conventional.

i agree WS is obviously a decent fluid & it performs great, but then again so do almost all other fluids today, factory brand or others. but even toyota s ays if you tow or abuse the vehicle to change the trans fluid at 60k... so much for the "lifelong" claims they originally stated. & the reason to change it that soon is due to the damage caused from heat, toyota is aware of that, so using a better synthetic fluid would make sense if it stands up to that heat & abuse better. that makes sense to me & is the main reason that myself & many others prefer a known full synthetic trans fluid.

i dont see any claims WS is synthetic either, the claims are that its NOT synthetic & therefore inferior to a true synthetic trans fluid for the reasons mentioned above.

as for the ATF in power steering systems, i dont know how old you are or how long youve been working on cars, but ATF for p/s has been around for decades... like 40 years! almost all GM cars use dex1-3 for the p/s since the 70's & so do many chrysler vehicles & other makes that i know of & have been working on myself for 25-30 years. ATF & all trans fluids are just a form or hydraulic fluid & dex2/3 meets the requirements for many different trans & p/s systems.

im not trying to argue or say you or anyone is wrong for useing WS or any other fluid of their choice, as long as it meets the specs & you change it when its needed any fluid is ok. but like you said, i chose maxlife because 1, i know it works after at least 10+ years of contless people using it, reputable mechanics using it in multiple vehicles with zero failures or damage. & 2, because its much cheaper to buy than WS, i spent like $50 for 13 qts of it vs more than double that for WS.

my research & speaking to valvoline about using it in WS toyotas is all the assurance i need to confirm its perfectly fine to use & so far has performed as good or better than WS. & dont forget all the shudder & rumble strip issues people have with their WS filled toyotas... thats a big sign to me that WS isnt all its cracked up to be. especially when maxlife has reportedly fixed or improved many of those issues!

Last edited by firebirdguy; 11-17-2019 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 11-17-2019, 01:18 PM #71
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Quote:
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thats fine if the YT guy is professor, but being college educated means very little, you can be book smart but still be real world experience ignorant! but if he is seriously laughing at maxlife or synthetics in general & basing his points on having no licenses then that shows he isnt that smart or has flawed reasoning when it comes to lubricants... & because of that i dont trust his "opinion" on fluids in general. & fact is the entire vid is just his opinions, no scientific facts or testing mentioned at all.

i agree that for oil, synthetic isnt really "needed" but it is better in certain aspects & will last longer than a conventional, mainly for people who do extended change intervals, or high heat turbo applications etc. ive read many blackstone & other labs analysis results & comments & trust what they say.

however, for trans fluids, i think synthetic has a big benefit in that it will stand up to heat much better than a conventional trans fluid, & heat is what kills transmissions. if you tow or do other high heat abuse then its definitely better than conventional.

i agree WS is obviously a decent fluid & it performs great, but then again so do almost all other fluids today, factory brand or others. but even toyota s ays if you tow or abuse the vehicle to change the trans fluid at 60k... so much for the "lifelong" claims they originally stated. & the reason to change it that soon is due to the damage caused from heat, toyota is aware of that, so using a better synthetic fluid would make sense if it stands up to that heat & abuse better. that makes sense to me & is the main reason that myself & many others prefer a known full synthetic trans fluid.

i dont see any claims WS is synthetic either, the claims are that its NOT synthetic & therefore inferior to a true synthetic trans fluid for the reasons mentioned above.

as for the ATF in power steering systems, i dont know how old you are or how long youve been working on cars, but ATF for p/s has been around for decades... like 40 years! almost all GM cars use dex1-3 for the p/s since the 70's & so do many chrysler vehicles & other makes that i know of & have been working on myself for 25-30 years. ATF & all trans fluids are just a form or hydraulic fluid & dex2/3 meets the requirements for many different trans & p/s systems.

im not trying to argue or say you or anyone is wrong for useing WS or any other fluid of their choice, as long as it meets the specs & you change it when its needed any fluid is ok. but like you said, i chose maxlife because 1, i know it works after at least 10+ years of contless people using it, reputable mechanics using it in multiple vehicles with zero failures or damage. & 2, because its much cheaper to buy than WS, i spent like $50 for 13 qts of it vs more than double that for WS.

my research & speaking to valvoline about using it in WS toyotas is all the assurance i need to confirm its perfectly fine to use & so far has performed as good or better than WS. & dont forget all the shudder & rumble strip issues people have with their WS filled toyotas... thats a big sign to me that WS isnt all its cracked up to be. especially when maxlife has reportedly fixed or improved many of those issues!
You keep mentioning that Maxlife has cured the shudder issue for those that have use it, but you neglect to mention that those that have replaced the old WS fluid with new WS fluid also had for the most part the same results with curing the shudder, I have read of both not curing the shudder, which in these cases is because the torque converter is shot which is where the shudder originates, I have never read that someone didn't cure the shudder using WS when replacing the fluid and then doing it again and replacing the WS with Maxlife and have the shudder be cured, I figured to be fair it's worth this being said.

All that being said I wouldn't hesitate to use either of these fluids, they're both great fluids, but Maxlife does have the least expensive price and being a confirmed synthetic going for it!
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Old 11-17-2019, 02:03 PM #72
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My transmission fluid has never been changed in 200k miles. Should I have it changed, but not flushed? I only drive highways, and need this 2007 V6 to last another 50k++ miles.

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Old 11-17-2019, 02:52 PM #73
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Quote:
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You keep mentioning that Maxlife has cured the shudder issue for those that have use it, but you neglect to mention that those that have replaced the old WS fluid with new WS fluid also had for the most part the same results with curing the shudder, I have read of both not curing the shudder, which in these cases is because the torque converter is shot which is where the shudder originates, I have never read that someone didn't cure the shudder using WS when replacing the fluid and then doing it again and replacing the WS with Maxlife and have the shudder be cured, I figured to be fair it worth this being said.

All that being said I wouldn't hesitate to use either of these fluids, they're both great fluids, but Maxlife does have the least expensive price and being a confirmed synthetic going for it!
i dont keep mentioning maxlife cured shudder for those that used it... i stated that SOME report that maxlife fixed or improved the issue, or that most say it improved the shifting in general. i agree that possibly new WS would have helped just the same but many of the posts ive read say that new WS was used & didnt change anyting.

here is one recent thread that i was mainly referring to, he said he has used WS for changes at 60k multiple times & then started to get shudder, he then exchanged all WS fluid with maxlife & it instantly went away & hasnt come back. no extra shudder fix stuff, just maxlife that stopped it. you posted on that thread a few times too... new WS didnt help prevent or stop the shudder in this case but maxlife did...

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-g...94-thread.html

i also agree that the TC is usually the cause of the shudder, but in general torque converters dont just go bad on their own for now reason, they go bad because of abuse or fluid that has failed due to heat & not providing proper lubrication anymore. & those that just daily drive & dont abuse their toyotas still have shudder issues, so each case is different but if its the TC to blame, how does a fluid change to either WS or maxlife fix the shudder from a bad TC? i dont have the answer but it indicates the fluid has a lot to do with it & some have said adding new WS didnt change it but maxlife &/or shudder fix additive did. regardless of if the fluid matters for that, its strange that so many shudder issues happen using the almighty lifetime WS.

the whole WS vs maxlife debate is like oil debates, everyone has their opinion & preference, im just stating some facts that maxlife or amsoil or other WS compatible fluids have never caused any problems in toyota transmissions & are perfectly safe to use & may actually have some benefits over WS.
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Old 11-17-2019, 02:58 PM #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Runner4Runner4 View Post
My transmission fluid has never been changed in 200k miles. Should I have it changed, but not flushed? I only drive highways, and need this 2007 V6 to last another 50k++ miles.

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at 200k miles, regardless of fluid type, it should be changed. toyota even says to change WS at 100k miles in the owners manual & at 60k if you tow or abuse it.

doing a true flush is not the way to do it, flushes use machines to push out the old fluid under pressure & can dislodge debris etc, most dont like that on higher mile cars. doing an exhange simply uses the transmissions interal pump to pump it out of a radiator cooling line then you add more fluid via the fill hole as explained in this thread & many others here & youtube.

i would change it out asap with that many miles, & use whatever fluid you can afford & that makes you feel all warm & fuzzy... but any WS rated fluid will be fine & far better than 200k mile old fluid.
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Old 11-17-2019, 03:26 PM #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebirdguy View Post
i dont keep mentioning maxlife cured shudder for those that used it... i stated that SOME report that maxlife fixed or improved the issue, or that most say it improved the shifting in general. i agree that possibly new WS would have helped just the same but many of the posts ive read say that new WS was used & didnt change anyting.

here is one recent thread that i was mainly referring to, he said he has used WS for changes at 60k multiple times & then started to get shudder, he then exchanged all WS fluid with maxlife & it instantly went away & hasnt come back. no extra shudder fix stuff, just maxlife that stopped it. you posted on that thread a few times too... new WS didnt help prevent or stop the shudder in this case but maxlife did...

https://www.toyota-4runner.org/4th-g...94-thread.html

i also agree that the TC is usually the cause of the shudder, but in general torque converters dont just go bad on their own for now reason, they go bad because of abuse or fluid that has failed due to heat & not providing proper lubrication anymore. & those that just daily drive & dont abuse their toyotas still have shudder issues, so each case is different but if its the TC to blame, how does a fluid change to either WS or maxlife fix the shudder from a bad TC? i dont have the answer but it indicates the fluid has a lot to do with it & some have said adding new WS didnt change it but maxlife &/or shudder fix additive did. regardless of if the fluid matters for that, its strange that so many shudder issues happen using the almighty lifetime WS.

the whole WS vs maxlife debate is like oil debates, everyone has their opinion & preference, im just stating some facts that maxlife or amsoil or other WS compatible fluids have never caused any problems in toyota transmissions & are perfectly safe to use & may actually have some benefits over WS.
Yes that is one instance that I didn't remember of him using Maxlife on his last fluid change and it stopped his shudder...but since he hasn't reported back who's to know if it "cured" it, he could of use the WS fluid and had the same results and also who's to know what the results would be if he had been using Maxlife when servicing the transmission from the start and in the end had the same issue that prompted him to go with a different fluid for the last reported fluid change, so it would be nice if he responds back to where you recently asked how it was doing on the shudder issue, which still may happen since he seems to still be active but just hasn't been on the forum for a little over 2 months now, but he also doesn't post very much his last post was about one year ago, it would definitely add some good definite info to the debate.
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