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Old 10-08-2019, 08:14 PM #16
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Originally Posted by Az4runnin View Post
What is the Part # for those Cats?
The new part number from GESI is 50025. The old vibrant PN is 7525

Quote:
Originally Posted by doofenshmirtz View Post
I had seen the old version of those from vibrant but hadn't seen why they were not for sale anymore, and I hadn't been looking for short cats at that time either.. Those are perfect, but dang!, those are like $350 a piece!

I bet you'd do just fine running a single cat on each bank with those. I's still try to run them before the second set of O2 sensors in the hope that you wouldn't need any tricker to remove CELs or codes, but with those being rated for 350-500hp. Even better, they've got O2 bungs available built into the transition fittings, so you could run the sensors that much closer, too.

Are you running any cats after your shorties with those? any sulfur smell?
Don't have them installed yet, but they should be installed by end of the week or early next. My truck is at the shope currently. Once I get them installed, I'll be sure to report back with my findings on the sulfur smell, etc..

But, yes. I'll be welding a 3 bolt flange to the collector on the DT shorties, a flange to the top side of the cat, and then a 2 bolt flange to connect to the DT y-pipe.

They're more expensive than the Magnaflow cats for sure, but I want to do this job once and not have to worry about it again. I've read online that the Magnaflow cats don't last.

I'll be running 1 of those per bank, no cats after them. Definitely overkill for these 4Rs, but that just means they'll last that much longer and flow that much better.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:18 PM #17
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Please do update when you get them on there. These look really promising. Buy once, cry once.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:35 PM #18
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Originally Posted by doofenshmirtz View Post
Please do update when you get them on there. These look really promising. Buy once, cry once.
My thoughts exactly. Hurts my wallet now, but hopefully will pay off in the long run.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:28 PM #19
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So after some more research, it seems that the metallic substrate catalytic converters, like the GESI are more efficient or cleaner than the ceramic substrate ones on a per volume basis. That means that running what amounts to a 4" x 4" (body only) cylinder of metallic substrate catalytic converter (specifically, the GESI 50025) would likely not filter as well as something like a 4.25" x 9" (body only) cylinder of ceramic substrate, like the magnaflow OEM-grade cats.

This post if from an RX-7 forum, but details quite a bit from some source materials about the comparisons of the two types. This is where the majority of my useful info came from. A major fault in my conclusions may be that GESI has overcome or outperformed what's used for examples in the source, which is about 10 years old. There's not really an unbiased way to find this out without spending a LOT of money doing firsthand testing. That's not in the cards for me, personally.

Assuming the data is still valid, what does it mean? I'm not 100% on the real world results, but it would seem to mean that you'll likely see much less restriction from these GESI cats, but also less total filtration. I'd expect that the reduction of exhaust smell would be lower as well. For me, the biggest factor in not running catless is the smell, followed by the emissions reductions. Given this, I don't think these GESI's are going to be a good fit for me.

One big advantage to the metallic substrate is that they'll withstand much higher temps, and are good candidates for use really close to the engine. An ideal situation would be running the GESI as the primary cat, and then a larger ceramic catalyst as the secondary ones, but that runs into an arena that would be cost prohibitive. You'd be looking at a fully custom setup with $1000 in catalytic converters alone.

On the flipside of this, the ceramic cats are going to likely be more restrictive and better filtering of exhaust pollutants. Overall, though, if I'm eliminating the primary cats, and eliminating the crushed, double walled factory y-pipe, I suspect the net effect would still be freer flow overall.

I'm still circling back around to the idea that these oem-grade magnaflow y-pipes are probably going to end up being the most effective use of my time and money, given that any other option has the added risks and expenses of fabrication. The magnaflows are 100% bolt-on, mandrel bent, 409 stainless, true y-fitting, and with what is likely 400 CPI ceramic substrate.

I'm going to keep mulling things over and keep researching.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:53 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doofenshmirtz View Post
So after some more research, it seems that the metallic substrate catalytic converters, like the GESI are more efficient or cleaner than the ceramic substrate ones on a per volume basis. That means that running what amounts to a 4" x 4" (body only) cylinder of metallic substrate catalytic converter (specifically, the GESI 50025) would likely not filter as well as something like a 4.25" x 9" (body only) cylinder of ceramic substrate, like the magnaflow OEM-grade cats.

This post if from an RX-7 forum, but details quite a bit from some source materials about the comparisons of the two types. This is where the majority of my useful info came from. A major fault in my conclusions may be that GESI has overcome or outperformed what's used for examples in the source, which is about 10 years old. There's not really an unbiased way to find this out without spending a LOT of money doing firsthand testing. That's not in the cards for me, personally.

Assuming the data is still valid, what does it mean? I'm not 100% on the real world results, but it would seem to mean that you'll likely see much less restriction from these GESI cats, but also less total filtration. I'd expect that the reduction of exhaust smell would be lower as well. For me, the biggest factor in not running catless is the smell, followed by the emissions reductions. Given this, I don't think these GESI's are going to be a good fit for me.

One big advantage to the metallic substrate is that they'll withstand much higher temps, and are good candidates for use really close to the engine. An ideal situation would be running the GESI as the primary cat, and then a larger ceramic catalyst as the secondary ones, but that runs into an arena that would be cost prohibitive. You'd be looking at a fully custom setup with $1000 in catalytic converters alone.

On the flipside of this, the ceramic cats are going to likely be more restrictive and better filtering of exhaust pollutants. Overall, though, if I'm eliminating the primary cats, and eliminating the crushed, double walled factory y-pipe, I suspect the net effect would still be freer flow overall.

I'm still circling back around to the idea that these oem-grade magnaflow y-pipes are probably going to end up being the most effective use of my time and money, given that any other option has the added risks and expenses of fabrication. The magnaflows are 100% bolt-on, mandrel bent, 409 stainless, true y-fitting, and with what is likely 400 CPI ceramic substrate.

I'm going to keep mulling things over and keep researching.
When I did some research, dyno results seem to say that today's modern cats only restrict 3-4 horsepower. With numbers like that I would be happy to run them except they cost so much.

I think I can build a y pipe starting this weekend for my truck so keep an eye on my thread, I might be able to build you one eventually depending on how the first one goes. If you can find a set of cats you are happy with I can weld them on too.
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Old 10-09-2019, 04:28 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inv4drZm View Post
When I did some research, dyno results seem to say that today's modern cats only restrict 3-4 horsepower. With numbers like that I would be happy to run them except they cost so much.

I think I can build a y pipe starting this weekend for my truck so keep an eye on my thread, I might be able to build you one eventually depending on how the first one goes. If you can find a set of cats you are happy with I can weld them on too.
Sounds good. I'll keep an eye out. I've also sent an email to Magnaflow support to see if they can provide more details about their specific direct fit y-pipe: CPI of the cats, tube diameter, wall thickness, stainless grade, mandrel bent or not, any crushing of tubes, etc.

I doubt I'll get all that info, but maybe I can get some of it...
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Old 10-11-2019, 01:54 AM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doofenshmirtz View Post
So after some more research, it seems that the metallic substrate catalytic converters, like the GESI are more efficient or cleaner than the ceramic substrate ones on a per volume basis. That means that running what amounts to a 4" x 4" (body only) cylinder of metallic substrate catalytic converter (specifically, the GESI 50025) would likely not filter as well as something like a 4.25" x 9" (body only) cylinder of ceramic substrate, like the magnaflow OEM-grade cats.

This post if from an RX-7 forum, but details quite a bit from some source materials about the comparisons of the two types. This is where the majority of my useful info came from. A major fault in my conclusions may be that GESI has overcome or outperformed what's used for examples in the source, which is about 10 years old. There's not really an unbiased way to find this out without spending a LOT of money doing firsthand testing. That's not in the cards for me, personally.

Assuming the data is still valid, what does it mean? I'm not 100% on the real world results, but it would seem to mean that you'll likely see much less restriction from these GESI cats, but also less total filtration. I'd expect that the reduction of exhaust smell would be lower as well. For me, the biggest factor in not running catless is the smell, followed by the emissions reductions. Given this, I don't think these GESI's are going to be a good fit for me.

One big advantage to the metallic substrate is that they'll withstand much higher temps, and are good candidates for use really close to the engine. An ideal situation would be running the GESI as the primary cat, and then a larger ceramic catalyst as the secondary ones, but that runs into an arena that would be cost prohibitive. You'd be looking at a fully custom setup with $1000 in catalytic converters alone.

On the flipside of this, the ceramic cats are going to likely be more restrictive and better filtering of exhaust pollutants. Overall, though, if I'm eliminating the primary cats, and eliminating the crushed, double walled factory y-pipe, I suspect the net effect would still be freer flow overall.

I'm still circling back around to the idea that these oem-grade magnaflow y-pipes are probably going to end up being the most effective use of my time and money, given that any other option has the added risks and expenses of fabrication. The magnaflows are 100% bolt-on, mandrel bent, 409 stainless, true y-fitting, and with what is likely 400 CPI ceramic substrate.

I'm going to keep mulling things over and keep researching.
These are all quality points that are worth making, another consideration is also the quality of the washcoat.

From what I've gathered, the GESI cats use a much higher quality washcoat (that is higher concentration of catalyst materials) than the cats of lesser value. So with the higher quality washcoast, the thought is that they'd do a better job of burning off unwanted exhaust gasses per square inch of surface area compared to a lower quality washcoat of the same surface area.

Now their washcoat probably isn't as high quality as OEM, but I'd wager it's better than magnaflow/flowmaster/other $100-$150 per catalytic converter.
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Old 10-14-2019, 02:22 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doofenshmirtz View Post
Sounds good. I'll keep an eye out. I've also sent an email to Magnaflow support to see if they can provide more details about their specific direct fit y-pipe: CPI of the cats, tube diameter, wall thickness, stainless grade, mandrel bent or not, any crushing of tubes, etc.

I doubt I'll get all that info, but maybe I can get some of it...
Got a FULL response to all my questions from Magnaflow. Amazed that I got anything back, much less a line by line set of answers.

FROM MAGNAFLOW REP:

Please refer to the following information;

Cell Count? - Magnaflow converters are all 400 cpsi.

Are there any flanges or tubing that are not stainless? I assume all the stainless is 409. - All parts we offer use 409ss pipe and flanges.

Is the tube diameter 2.25", and what is the wall thickness? 2.25" - 409ss is a 16ga or 0.060 - 0.065 thick

Are these mandrel bent, or is there any crushing or deformation to the tube? All MF pipe is mandrel bent.

Part 49697 appears as though it may have a welded seam or a slip fit after the catalytic converter, can you provide any details on what that is or isn't? #49697 and #49698 have flange connections, no slip fit connections are used.
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:37 PM #24
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Originally Posted by JONBOY345 View Post
These are all quality points that are worth making, another consideration is also the quality of the washcoat.

From what I've gathered, the GESI cats use a much higher quality washcoat (that is higher concentration of catalyst materials) than the cats of lesser value. So with the higher quality washcoast, the thought is that they'd do a better job of burning off unwanted exhaust gasses per square inch of surface area compared to a lower quality washcoat of the same surface area.

Now their washcoat probably isn't as high quality as OEM, but I'd wager it's better than magnaflow/flowmaster/other $100-$150 per catalytic converter.
Yeah the quality of the coating on seems to be a huge factor. One place was even mentioning that it's not even the amount of catalytic material, but the usage/placement/application of it that matters most. "an expert chemist could achieve better results with a small quantity of precious metals than an average chemist could achieve with ten times the amount" - Blackthorn (source)

I'm sure the GESI will absolutely restrict much less than Magnaflows, given its 300CPI and metal substrate. You're probably looking at half the restriction of the Magnaflow -(3/4 the CPI combined with 3/4 of the restriction per CPI). Is that a meaningful amount? I have no idea. It could be massive or nothing.

All said, we're still comparing EPA certified to EPA certified. The GESI should filter plenty well, just given the certification. It'll probably last longer due to its construction as well. Both are technically legally required to be able to pass emissions for 25,000 miles and be warrantied for 50,000, or something like that...

A fully custom Y-Pipe, with GESIs would be $750 in Cats (with o2 bungs), plus about $200 in raw materials. @Inv4drZm just spent what looks like at least 10 hours over the weekend in fabrication on his, so I'm expecting it'd cost at least $1250 out the door. That's about $500 more than the MF.

No matter what the decision, part of the difficulty is that I really doubt there's much performance per dollar ROI when you run catalytic converters on the y-pipe especially. I know I'd get something out of swapping the stock for the magnaflows, but I don't think the ~$750 is going to go as far here as it could elsewhere, and I REALLY doubt I'm going to get yet another $500-extra-performance from a fully custom set.
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Old 10-14-2019, 04:49 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doofenshmirtz View Post
A fully custom Y-Pipe, with GESIs would be $750 in Cats (with o2 bungs), plus about $200 in raw materials. @Inv4drZm just spent what looks like at least 10 hours over the weekend in fabrication on his, so I'm expecting it'd cost at least $1250 out the door. That's about $500 more than the MF.
Try $450 in materials (no cats) and 20 weekend hours.

But some of that time was spent dealing with snapped flange studs and planning the routing. If I had a jig to route tubing on the table, I could charge around $1k plus cat prices although now that it's built, I've noticed it can't really accommodate cats with the way I have it routed under the transmission unless you don't plan on using aftermarket skid plates.
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Old 10-14-2019, 05:09 PM #26
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Quote:
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Try $450 in materials (no cats) and 20 weekend hours.

But some of that time was spent dealing with snapped flange studs and planning the routing. If I had a jig to route tubing on the table, I could charge around $1k plus cat prices although now that it's built, I've noticed it can't really accommodate cats with the way I have it routed under the transmission unless you don't plan on using aftermarket skid plates.
I literally halved my actual estimates to make sure I wasnt being overly dramatic. I guess I was pretty close then, lol.

Your work looked really good btw! Youd have to route the tube more like factory to run cats for sure.
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Old 10-15-2019, 04:48 PM #27
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I've ordered the OEM Magnaflow Y-Pipe. I'll be updating things here when I get everything. Going to take lots of pictures of the parts and do a good write-up on these - for better or for worse.

I haven't gotten any details on when they'll ship just yet, so it's hard to say a time frame just yet, but I'm hopeful that this'll be the first piece to arrive on my new exhaust setup so that I can really note any differences, or lack thereof.

EDIT: Got a call from the place I ordered. Magnaflow is out of one side of these, and a production batch is scheduled to begin 10/26/19. They said I should expect to receive tracking numbers in 3 weeks.

Last edited by doofenshmirtz; 10-17-2019 at 11:48 AM.
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