View Poll Results: Have/had steering wheel vibration?
Yes - tire balance fixed it 127 11.24%
Yes - tire balance fixed it
127 11.24%
Yes - new tires fixed it 31 2.74%
Yes - new tires fixed it
31 2.74%
Yes - other fix (please specify) 44 3.89%
Yes - other fix (please specify)
44 3.89%
Yes - no fix yet 525 46.46%
Yes - no fix yet
525 46.46%
No 403 35.66%
No
403 35.66%
Voters: 1130. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-20-2012, 05:41 PM #31
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Here is my story....
What tires are on your limited?
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:46 PM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesie View Post
Lexus GX service bulletin attached. Steering Wheel Flutter at highway speed.
do the 4runner and the GX460 share any similarities? I believe the FJ cruiser has the same frame as the 4runner.

I'm printing this and the haweke adapter one for the dealer tomorrow.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:38 AM #33
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Originally Posted by 1engineer View Post
I didn't say anything earlier when I read "Toyota Engineer" in your post. I might be wrong, but you probably had a "Toyota District Rep" drive your truck. These are the actual "Toyota" employees who go to dealers within a small region and take care of issues and such. He could have went to school to be an engineer but my bet is on business or finance as this is more their field. Chances of him being an engineer hired by Toyota to go to dealerships and work on customer complaints = slim. I know a few of them and they are NOT engineers lol but they do good work helping their dealers. Quintin could chime in as he is an engineer who works for Toyota and a good mountain biker to boot! Quintin?
I think you're probably right, even though my invoice/repair sheet states Field Service Engineer (FSE)...and the service writer said he was such. After what happened this afternoon, I'm thinking his "FTE" title is a crock for what he did, or more accurately, didn't do. I'm not knocking the Engineering field...I know a few damn good ones and a bunch of clowns that shouldn't be allowed to use pencils.
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:22 AM #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJerk View Post
No differentiation between stock and modified vehicles makes this a very messy discussion. Tire and suspension mods will invite wobble issues and recent gen toyotas are notoriously susceptible (Taco boards went nuts over this issue). Stock vehicle owners need look no further than thier tires IMO (replace or rebalance multiple times till they get it right). Modified truck owners probably best to accept some minor wobble issues or revert back to stock.
The wobble doesn't bother me in the slightest. After experiencing the Ford SuperDuty death wobble at 65 with a 10000# trailer on, I will never complain about the wobble my 4r has. That damn truck would REGULARLY launch coffee cups out of the cup holders. Only way to stop it was slow down to about 30mph, that is why it is gone.

Ford F-250 "Death Wobble" - YouTube
^This is a wobble worth complaining about ^
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:44 AM #35
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UPDATE: As previously writen above, a Toyota "Field Service Engineer" and the service manager drove the T4R and were able to replicate the shimmy. On the invoice it states, and I quote verbatim:

"FSE performed inpection--verified concern. Drove comparison vehicle (VIN JTEBU5JR6C5100730 MILES 4) Comparison vehicle performed identical. Concern is a normal characteristic of this vehicle. No repairs recommended.

Ok, the FSE wizard drives it and because he is so knowledgeable, he is able to diagnose there is no problem in a 6 mile drive--mind you it's probably 1.5 miles of surface roads each way to get to the freeway, so in 3 miles of evaulation, there is "no problem."

This about set me off. I requested to the service writer that we talk with the wizard and the service manager. The wizard is gone...probably out fixing blown engines and twisted drivelines by uttering the words "Normal characteristic...no repairs recommended." The service manager was apparently "out to lunch" at 4pm when they close at 6pm...yeah right.

I speak with the service manager and ask him questions he didn't have very good answers to. This is a basic jist of the conversation

-So what you're telling me here is I've got a shimmy which the service writer and you initially agreed was a problem, correct? Service Manager, "Yes."
-You guys did a balance and the problem was still there, so you called Toyota who agreed there is a problem and they said to do a GPS 9700 balance, right? Service Manager, "Yes"
-Ok, so you've confirmed there is a problem with Toyota backing you telling you to take further action, you do this, the problem still exists. Now the FSE comes and drives my truck for 6 miles, verifies the issue on mine and another truck, determines and proclaims this is Normal, right? Service Manager, "Well, yeah, they all do that."
-Do you have any documentation from Toyota saying this is normal, because I looked in my owners manual and couldn't find anything saying intermittent steering wheel shiimmy at 60-70 mpg is normal." Service Manager, "Well, yours does it and the brand new one on the lot did it too."
-I can assure you they all don't as my mother in law has one, same year, make, model and hers is smooth. Should I tell her something is wrong as hers doesn't have the normal vibration which is a characteristic of the vehicle? Service Manager, "Well, hers might do it."
-Ok, so if they all 4Runners do this, why does Toyota even bother to balance the tires from the factory if a shimmy is an inherent and desired design charateristic which I think any reasonable person would disagree with? I feel and it's apparant I'm getting brushed off here. Service Manager, "Well, there isn't a repair available that Toyota is telling us to do?"
-Ok, I understand your position, but I have a gut feeling things might not have been done correctly or looked at thoroughly, so hear me out.
-Did the FSE personally check or oversee an alignment check to rule that out? Service Manager, "Well, um, no, it's the tires vibrating and we did an aligment a while back."
-You're right, you stated you checked the alignment, but I never saw a printout sheet, anyway. Did the FSE personally check, oversee or look for rim runout or potential tire defect? Service Manager, "Well, no, we did the balance the other day and then took it to the Ford dealer across the street and they did the GSP9700 balance and they balanced out fine."
-I'm sure they balanced out fine, but that's the issue...they balance out fine but drive poorly. You can balance a brick with enough weight, but that doesn't mean it's going to roll smooth. Service Manager, "Ha ha, yeah, that's true."
-What type of force readings did you guys get from the GSP9700, a printout or some data from them?" Service Manager, "We didn't get a printout as maybe they have one of the old ones that don't have a printer."
-Did you request a printout? Service Manager, "I'm not sure."
-Did the tech at Ford use the HAWEKA adapter as recommended by the TSB? Service Manager, "Well I think he must have."
-Does the Ford service center have a HAWEKA adapter? Service Manager, "I'm not sure, but I'll check on it."
-How would a Ford technician know about a Toyota TSB unless someone personally told him to use it? Service Manager, "Um, Uh, Um, Uh, I'm not sure but I'll check on it."
-You see the reason I'm asking about the printout, adapter and such is so you could provide the wizard with all the information he needed in which to make an informed decision that there is an acutal issue here. Instead, the wizard comes in and doesn't see you have data and facts...you don't have a printout, you're not sure if a HAWEKA adapter was used or even available. See my point? Service Manager, "Yeah, but at the point our hands are tied because there isn't a fix out there."

Needless to say, I got nowhere with this cat. The excuse matrix these service managers have is absolutely incredible. Do they go to school for this?

Service Manager said I could call the Toyota number and submit a trouble ticket...I'm floored...isn't this his job to resolve problems?

So after this is all said and done, the service writer is again asking about giving him a good grade on his report card!! Ha ha

I then go across the street to the Ford garage and talk with the service writer chick over there. The tech who did the GSP9700 wasn't there and I couldn't get any resolution on the question if they had a HAWEKA adapter or not. The girl told me to just bring it back tomorrow afternoon and we'll do it again. She said if they didn't have one, they'd get it from Toyota. Shockingly, I got (initially) better service at the Ford garage.

More to follow tomorrow when round 2 on the GSP9700 happens.
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:00 PM #36
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welp....today was my final visit to the dealership.

The toyota rep replicated the issue (again) with the service manager in the vehicel and now they are telling me that it's just the behavior of the vehicle "it's a truck and we drove another one that had the same shimmy". He told me the toyota rep is not going to spend anymore time with the vehicle and that they are done looking at it.

This is my first Toyota and I'm not happy - especially for $40k.

Arbitration sounds like the next step. Toyota trucks/fj cruiser/4runners all have vibration issues.

This sucks! Hopefully at least a TSB will come out about this (probably in a few years)
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:12 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindomEarles View Post
welp....today was my final visit to the dealership.

The toyota rep replicated the issue (again) with the service manager in the vehicel and now they are telling me that it's just the behavior of the vehicle "it's a truck and we drove another one that had the same shimmy". He told me the toyota rep is not going to spend anymore time with the vehicle and that they are done looking at it.

This is my first Toyota and I'm not happy - especially for $40k.

Arbitration sounds like the next step. Toyota trucks/fj cruiser/4runners all have vibration issues.

This sucks! Hopefully at least a TSB will come out about this (probably in a few years)
Now you get to play hardball. Tell the GM you will now get it fixed at their expense somewhere else. They will change their tune.
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:11 PM #38
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Originally Posted by 1engineer View Post
Now you get to play hardball. Tell the GM you will now get it fixed at their expense somewhere else. They will change their tune.
The GM actually told me he believes it's not in the tires/wheels (after all they've tried). The toyota tech rep was the one who said that they're done looking at it. I feel like the GM has been very helpful (put on new michiliens) for me, but now he's taking direction from toyota. He said he's going to keep an eye open for new TSB's. Toyota will be running it up the chain. So hopefully, with enough people (THAT MEANS YOU READING THIS FORUM) escalate the issue, we can get some traction from toyota to fix this issue.

I'll tell him I'll be taking it elsewhere and if they fix it, I'll send them a bill. Arbitration may be next!
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:22 PM #39
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I don't think they are running anything up the chain.

You need to find a competent mechanic with troubleshooting skills to fix the problem, and send the dealer the bill. I would also check out the lemon law in your state to give you more leverage for negotiating with the dealer.
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:40 PM #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindomEarles View Post
The GM actually told me he believes it's not in the tires/wheels (after all they've tried). The toyota tech rep was the one who said that they're done looking at it. I feel like the GM has been very helpful (put on new michiliens) for me, but now he's taking direction from toyota. He said he's going to keep an eye open for new TSB's. Toyota will be running it up the chain. So hopefully, with enough people (THAT MEANS YOU READING THIS FORUM) escalate the issue, we can get some traction from toyota to fix this issue.

I'll tell him I'll be taking it elsewhere and if they fix it, I'll send them a bill. Arbitration may be next!
Jeremy is right. Nothing is going up any chain. You paid 40K for a vehicle and in your mind it is not correct in it's operation. You seem like a relatively intelligent fellow so do not stutter with your next step. Write a letter (or get a lawyer buddy to do so) to the GM or owner laying out everything that has been done and said. Then tell them they have choices: Take it back with full refund, fix it or pay to have it fixed. They won't take it back, they have tried to fix it so they really have one alternative and that is to pay to have it fixed. Even though they have been nice to you it's business and nothing else. Fix it, pay to have it fixed or you will eventually get it back and I will get a refund. Their choice. You need much more documentation than your little dissertation you wrote though. Write down everything, and I mean everything that was said and did to the best of your ability along with any and all paperwork, emails, etc that you have.

It's a good vehicle. Everyone has problems such as this from time to time and they eventually get resolved. Good luck.
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Old 06-21-2012, 06:47 PM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1engineer View Post
Jeremy is right. Nothing is going up any chain. You paid 40K for a vehicle and in your mind it is not correct in it's operation. You seem like a relatively intelligent fellow so do not stutter with your next step. Write a letter (or get a lawyer buddy to do so) to the GM or owner laying out everything that has been done and said. Then tell them they have choices: Take it back with full refund, fix it or pay to have it fixed. They won't take it back, they have tried to fix it so they really have one alternative and that is to pay to have it fixed. Even though they have been nice to you it's business and nothing else. Fix it, pay to have it fixed or you will eventually get it back and I will get a refund. Their choice. You need much more documentation than your little dissertation you wrote though. Write down everything, and I mean everything that was said and did to the best of your ability along with any and all paperwork, emails, etc that you have.

It's a good vehicle. Everyone has problems such as this from time to time and they eventually get resolved. Good luck.
I think my next step is to try a tire store to balance the tires. It's $15 a tire to balance. Seems like the next logical step before arbitration/contacting gm. Thoughts? I'm not confident that they can balance a tire.
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:06 PM #42
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The day I bought my Tacoma the steering wheel shook. After 3 tries at the dealership I brought it to an independent shop with the hunter machine I linked to before. I had to call around to find a shop that knew what a hawke adapter was.

They informed me that 2 of my wheels were out of round, but with indexing and always keeping those 2 wheels on the rear axle, my steering wheel shake was gone for 100k miles.

I got my 4runner in February and immediately put on new wheels and tires. Discount Tire tried 3 times and was not able to balance them, so I started calling around until I found someone knowledgeable, and they were able to fix it in one trip.
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:31 PM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy556 View Post
The day I bought my Tacoma the steering wheel shook. After 3 tries at the dealership I brought it to an independent shop with the hunter machine I linked to before. I had to call around to find a shop that knew what a hawke adapter was.

They informed me that 2 of my wheels were out of round, but with indexing and always keeping those 2 wheels on the rear axle, my steering wheel shake was gone for 100k miles.

I got my 4runner in February and immediately put on new wheels and tires. Discount Tire tried 3 times and was not able to balance them, so I started calling around until I found someone knowledgeable, and they were able to fix it in one trip.
Who did you go with? I was actually going to take mine to discount tire.

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Old 06-21-2012, 08:12 PM #44
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The Taco was some place back in Tampa when I lived there. Some small shop I forget the name. The 4Runner I took to Massey Automotive in Marietta, GA.

The key to getting it done right, was to "interview" the tech a bit, and to explain that many had tried and failed, and that you need "the guy." Both times cost me around $100, but was well, well, worth it.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:30 PM #45
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I had my KM2's put on yesterday at Discount Tire and actually paid attention and asked questions while they were balancing them. Even though my Konigs are lug centric they used a hub centric cone adapter to balance them that he said is designed and made specifically for Discount Tire. They said they came up with it for Toyota trucks because of how hard specifically that Tundra's and Sequoia's are to balance and that they are the hardest to balance for him.

Anyways ,my KM2's balanced fine and are the smoothest set of tires I've had yet on my 4Runner.I think I got lucky and might have got one of the best sets of KM2's on the planet. One of them took zero weights and another one of them only took 3 oz. with the worst one only taking like 8oz.. One of my last Goodyear tires took a double stack in 2 places and all but one took alot of weight.A couple of my old set of KM2's took alot of weight too.

Just a thought....Reading the Lexus TSB and them talking about wheel flutter and heavier duty steering control valve preload springs to reduce the flutter makes me wonder if too low of caster setting might exaggerate the problem and a possible fix would be to realign with max caster. Surely Toyota would have thought of this and tried more caster ....right?

On my truck at least and several others on here ,more positive caster stabilized the steering so it doesn't have the light steering ,wandering feeling that it came with.I can let off the steering wheel and it will drive straight ahead for as long as the road allows it and no more battling the constant steering corrections of when I first had it. For me,it was like night and day and the reason why the second or third time I had it aligned I had the pos. caster increased to max and 5.6+ degrees I running now.
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