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Old 08-13-2013, 10:06 AM #31
Quentin Quentin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandCruiser View Post
Right, if that were the case, the major carmakers wouldn't bother making separate models for the Canadian or Mexican markets, either (and unique ones at that not available in the US because of emissions, diesel, crash worthiness, etc). Most are made side by side with vehicles for the American market in the Canadian and Mexican plants--and most are penned in the corporate design offices next to their American counterparts.

There are literally millions of cab, engine, drivetrain, interior, and transmission combinations a pickup comes in, and they somehow manage to make all of them instead of making one version and hoping people will run with it.

There's really no reason they couldn't have separate drivetrain and ECU combinations for Commiefornia and the rest of the country, unless you're also saying making the same car with two or three engine choices is so damn hard (Camry, Accord, etc), or a Mexican, Canadian, and American spec one in the same factory or with nearly the same blueprints. It's not cost savings, it's just plain laziness. It would be cheaper to streamline all model lines into one popular engine and transmission choice the way they have with the 4Runners, yet you don't see many manufacturers doing that.

In truth it's led to aerodynamic add ons and engine management crap, transmission shift patterns, oil blends, etc. that most of the country does not need (the majority of the car market is still outside California) and the ideas are so brilliant, political administrations latch on to them and make CARB the law of the land--which is slowly killing off things like diesels, body on frame SUVs, big V8 sedans, etc.

One day when you're driving your unibody crossover SUV with turbocharged four cylinder gas-hybrid engine and low rolling resistance tires think of profitability, politicians, corporate boards and CARB and smile.
Show me someone that has refused to buy a car because it was California compliant and instead buys a competitors' vehicle that is NOT California compliant (in the past 10 years). That is the difference. Customers might buy a JGC because it has a nice riding air suspension and the 4Runner doesn't. They might choose an Xterra because it is cheaper than a 4Runner. They might buy a JGC for the diesel powerplant. Those are all things that it could make sense for Toyota to spend money developing assuming the market does exist. You can extrapolate this line of thinking to the Canada, Mexico, Western Hemisphere (in general) markets. That is we have a 4Runner, afterall, instead of a Land Cruiser Prado. There is some payback in developing trims specifically for markets. Buyers don't open the hood of a 4Runner, see the air injection system, and decide that this isn't the vehicle for them. Thus, developing a California truck and an "everything else" truck makes no financial sense.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:04 AM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandCruiser View Post
Right, if that were the case, the major carmakers wouldn't bother making separate models for the Canadian or Mexican markets, either (and unique ones at that not available in the US because of emissions, diesel, crash worthiness, etc). Most are made side by side with vehicles for the American market in the Canadian and Mexican plants--and most are penned in the corporate design offices next to their American counterparts.

There are literally millions of cab, engine, drivetrain, interior, and transmission combinations a pickup comes in, and they somehow manage to make all of them instead of making one version and hoping people will run with it.

There's really no reason they couldn't have separate drivetrain and ECU combinations for Commiefornia and the rest of the country, unless you're also saying making the same car with two or three engine choices is so damn hard (Camry, Accord, etc), or a Mexican, Canadian, and American spec one in the same factory or with nearly the same blueprints. It's not cost savings, it's just plain laziness. It would be cheaper to streamline all model lines into one popular engine and transmission choice the way they have with the 4Runners, yet you don't see many manufacturers doing that.

In truth it's led to aerodynamic add ons and engine management crap, transmission shift patterns, oil blends, etc. that most of the country does not need (the majority of the car market is still outside California) and the ideas are so brilliant, political administrations latch on to them and make CARB the law of the land--which is slowly killing off things like diesels, body on frame SUVs, big V8 sedans, etc.

One day when you're driving your unibody crossover SUV with turbocharged four cylinder gas-hybrid engine and low rolling resistance tires think of profitability, politicians, corporate boards and CARB and smile.

It is complete BS, that in America, you don't have the "Freedom" to buy the car you want. In almost every other country, there are so many other awesome car options, and models, that we will never see. People are making a big stink about the GOV trying to ban the sale of incandescent light bulbs for home use, because of our loss of rights. That is nothing compared to how the GOV restricts what cars we can drive.

Just imagine being able to go buy a new car, and once you found the model you want, you get to choose several options of different petrol and diesel engines, and transmissions, and not having to settle for anything. YOU CAN ACTUALLY BUY A NEW CAR WITH A MANUAL TRANSMISSION IN OTHER COUNTRIES!!! (okay, there are still a couple of manufactures that still offer a manual, but good luck finding one on the lot, with any of the options you want) You can also buy a reasonably sized diesel in just about every make and model (something smaller then a 6.0L V8 *real diesels are inline* and gets good mileage and has plenty of torque)

Also, changing a cartridge filter every 10k miles isn't that big of a deal. I remember having to change my oil every 3000 miles, now that is something to complain about!

Last edited by Whiplash Willy; 08-13-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:39 AM #33
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If Americans weren't so caught up about buying on price, those options could be available. We gotta have it now and we want to pay Walmart prices for it. That is why we have trims instead of a la carte. If you want a la carte, you pay dearly for it (like my MINI). Other countries pay a ton more for the same vehicle compared to the US.
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Old 08-13-2013, 11:47 AM #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LandCruiser View Post
Right, if that were the case, the major carmakers wouldn't bother making separate models for the Canadian or Mexican markets, either (and unique ones at that not available in the US because of emissions, diesel, crash worthiness, etc). Most are made side by side with vehicles for the American market in the Canadian and Mexican plants--and most are penned in the corporate design offices next to their American counterparts.
That's odd. My Canadian 2001 Maxima has U.S. 50 states emissions and US motor safety approvals in addition to the Canadian ones. Clearly you haven't looked at the door jam labels in a country other than than the U.S.

Quote:
There are literally millions of cab, engine, drivetrain, interior, and transmission combinations a pickup comes in, and they somehow manage to make all of them instead of making one version and hoping people will run with it.
The pick-up truck is a North-American phenomenon. Seriously, you barely see them elsewhere on this planet, outside of banana republic militaries.

Quote:
There's really no reason they couldn't have separate drivetrain and ECU combinations for Commiefornia and the rest of the country, unless you're also saying making the same car with two or three engine choices is so damn hard (Camry, Accord, etc), or a Mexican, Canadian, and American spec one in the same factory or with nearly the same blueprints. It's not cost savings, it's just plain laziness. It would be cheaper to streamline all model lines into one popular engine and transmission choice the way they have with the 4Runners, yet you don't see many manufacturers doing that.
You know even less about how industrial production works than I thought.
Quote:
In truth it's led to aerodynamic add ons and engine management crap, transmission shift patterns, oil blends, etc. that most of the country does not need (the majority of the car market is still outside California) and the ideas are so brilliant, political administrations latch on to them and make CARB the law of the land--which is slowly killing off things like diesels, body on frame SUVs, big V8 sedans, etc.
Newfangled aerodynamics, eh? Gosh-darn it, them darn technologisticals are at it again. And this thing called "market dynamics." Hint: It's like people, voting with dollars.

CARB is not what's killing big V8 sedans, body-on-frame blah blah stuff. Gas prices, and the resulting consumer demand is. Plus crashworthiness - average-vehicle-on-average-vehicle, or barrier, unibody does better. Plus you can actually make a car that handles and rides well.

Go buy a 1971 Ford F150 or Bronco. Be happy. Don't complain to us about it.

Quote:
One day when you're driving your unibody crossover SUV with turbocharged four cylinder gas-hybrid engine and low rolling resistance tires think of profitability, politicians, corporate boards and CARB and smile.
You're making the carburetor and bias ply argument again. Makes sense - you use a Colt. I run a Glock. It's a free country, bro, and if you're a market big enough, people will make things to please you. In Colts, clearly there are enough of you. For cars, not so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiplash Willy View Post
It is complete BS, that in America, you don't have the "Freedom" to buy the car you want. In almost every other country, there are so many other awesome car options, and models, that we will never see. People are making a big stink about the GOV trying to ban the sale of incandescent light bulbs for home use, because of our loss of rights. That is nothing compared to how the GOV restricts what cars we can drive.

Just imagine being able to go buy a new car, and once you found the model you want, you get to choose several options of different petrol and diesel engines, and transmissions, and not having to settle for anything. YOU CAN ACTUALLY BUY A NEW CAR WITH A MANUAL TRANSMISSION IN OTHER COUNTRIES!!! (okay, there are still a couple of manufactures that still offer a manual, but good luck finding one on the lot, with any of the options you want) You can also buy a reasonably sized diesel in just about every make and model (something smaller then a 6.0L V8 *real diesels are inline* and gets good mileage and has plenty of torque)

Also, changing a cartridge filter every 10k miles isn't that big of a deal. I remember having to change my oil every 3000 miles, now that is something to complain about!
I don't agree with everything you said there, but much of the vehicle choices stateside are crony capitalism at it's finest. Everything sold in Europe today can meet emissions requirements for all 50 states. It's the rabbit warren of other legislation and their resulting certification processes that makes it completely unprofitable for Toyota to bring their D4D diesels here.

Manual transmissions, however, are market pressures. Americans race from red light to red light, and tail-gate in traffic jams, and do a boat-load of other things (texting, surfing, just talking with a phone on your head even though you have Bluetooth) while careening down the road. Only with an automatic can you do that without wanting to kill yourself (or actually doing so) after an hour.
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