Funny how opinions grow out of lack of understanding. Looks to me like someone here has beef with Chris and wants to wagg a finger at his stuff.

For those of us who are running Hefty's crazy over engineered stuff....I wonder if it's weak and un-wheelable like this front bumper must be.

Joking aside. I have run steel bumpers on the last 5 4Runner builds I have done, also a few Tacomas and other Toyota 4x4s. This will be my first Aluminum bumper ever. BUT, I am actually an engineer and I have been to and spent a large amount of time at the Hefty Shop. I have had hands on with this bumper and other products, I'm confidently dropping my money on this Aluminum bumper. I do wheel at several events (mostly just ones we sponsor) around the US and small local group runs.

@TOY2G I meant to call Hefty today but ran out of time due to work. Any idea when the first few will be ready to go? I put my deposit down in early August as I recall.

I talked to him today. He is back up to full staff on welding and will roll out the bumpers in about 8 weeks. It's a littler later than what he was hoping for, but on the up side the second full production prototype rolled out a few days ago and that is a huge leap forward.

i can only assume you're directing your comments to me. I've never met chris, never spoken with him, and have no beef with him, and my understanding is just fine.

he may have engineered strength into the equation, but chemistry doesnt lie in this scenario. the D shackle mounts should be made of steel. this is a perfect example and relates totally to my point. another is Ford's continued use of a steel frame on their trucks with aluminum shells. they tested aluminum framed trucks, and the constant cycling lead to premature failure.

i never said it was was weak and un-wheelable, i said it has a shelf life. if you ever spent any time in the saddle of a mountain bike you'd see that professional racers and endurance riders all use steel framed bikes, because the aluminum ones no matter the design always fail within X number of cycles. maybe our resident arm-chair engineer and mountain bike rider @1engineer can chime in

its funny how biased opinions form out of relationships

Professional mtn bikers are on carbon these days, but then the full suspension tech takes the stress off the frames more than it did ten years ago. Plus if the frame cracks they get a new one. Having raced extensively I always liked steel but it's heavy, Ti is my ride of choice now mostly because I don't have sponsors and its durable.

I think its fair to point out that cost is not the only drawback to aluminum, but I guess the question is really how long is the fatigue life? I mean if it can handle 500 recoveries before the fatigue comes into play there may be plenty of folks that would never come close to that and the weight savings are worth it to them. I don't know enough about bumper stress to even speculate.

I agree with the above, No real idea but if I had to guess the fatigue limit is orders of magnitude higher then 500 and not a real concern.

Is it a common failure to experience with aluminum bumpers? I am sure 4runners are not the 1st market for them.

I got a sneak peak at the Pelfreybilt version. It will definitely be a contender in this market!

OR, there really is just pro's and con's to aluminum vs steel. Con's don't mean it's poorly designed. It means steel and aluminum have inherently different qualities, suitable for different uses. Same reason there's skids available in steel and in aluminum. Pro's and con's there too but doesn't mean they're built with lack of design.

Aluminum bumper won't work for you? Don't get one. Doesn't mean it's not going to be suitable for someone else.

I'll take a 60lb bumper over a 140lb one for my use. But just my preference.

Crap, so now we are going to have to buy titanium bumpers?

but the cons should be engineered out of the bumper. of course steel and aluminum have inherent qualities, but a bumper designed to bridge the qualities is one thats been properly designed.

from the available pictures of both the available bumpers, not having seen them in person: i can hypothesize that a non-linear snatch recovery from one of the shackles at say a 45* angle will put those tabs at near failure at the weld. a couple of those will lead to fractures.

i don't know what the cycle life of an aluminum bumper would be, but at 2x the total cost of a steel alternative id want it to last just as long as the steel one. i see the additional cost you're paying for is paying to not get corrosion and light weight.

it would not be difficult to build a steel cradle that serves as a front crossmember to alleviate torsional stress on the bumper, serves as winch plate to keep those stressors centralized and offer through welded and secure 1" steel tabs for recovery that fit through the aluminum shell.

having the steel super structure would add minimum weight and maximum reliability, and allow a significant amount of more expensive aluminum to be saved in the construction reducing material and labor costs, and returning them to the customer.

the big aluminum bumper manufacturers are a handful of Jeep outfitters like Savvy Offroad and Genright and general manufacturers like Aluminess.

they all provide a steel crossmember/winchplate that links the frame horns together and use the aluminum as a shell.

the ONLY ONE who doesnt do that is Savvy with their front bumpers, and thats because the wranglers have a huge tubular crossmember at the leading edge of the frame horn. on the JK Wrangler versions of their front bumper, the crossmember is cut off and removed, but the aluminum bumper is also built as a monocoque shell around the frame horns out of 1/4" 6065-T6 that has been heat treated post-welding and it serves as the crossmember. it however has been engineered as disposable in its cost if it suffers a fracture or damage and there is a crossmember in the frame only a foot behind it cradleing the engine.

Savvy and Genright's rear bumpers all use steel tabs for recovery that pass through the aluminum shell. as well, savvy uses an entire crossmember that integrates a steel hitch that passes through the aluminum shell.

6065 series aluminum that these bumpers are built from just can't be reliably trusted for continual fatigue stressors, and at their cost it seems pretty foolhardy to be investing in them when failure is a potential issue you have to deal with.

im not discounting pelfrybilt or hefty's work here - i admire their drive to build it and sell it, but they haven't done the necessary leg work to make this a lasting indestructible product to set the market standard.

i point to the Jeep Cherokee (XJ) as a good example of metal cycles in an every day world. the Cherokee uses a monocoque unibody constructed of steel. its a solid platform that uses the entire body and doors as a structural component. even the windshield glass is used to an extent. the newest cherokee rolled off the assembly line in the summer of 2001, so you can see how old these are starting to get, but thats not the point. there is a big market from offroad manufacturers tailored for the cherokee like TNT Customs and others that provide clamshell 3/16ths and 1/4" steel gussets to plate over the cherokee 'frame rails' to add rigidity. they're manufacturing these, and their common install practice because once you get the cherokee off 4 wheels frequently the incredible torsional stress placed on the unibody exceeds is design parameters. continued torsional stress placed on the unibody through suspension articulation and hauling of gear eventually develops creeks and squeaks and misalignment of door pins. realigning doors is a common practice in abused Cherokees and squeaks are prevalent in every one that has been taken offroad on more than a gravel road.

the cherokees unibody simply wasn't designed to that level of stress, but its incredibly light weight - AND were talking about steel. think of the level of engineering Ford put into the new F150s that still use a steel frame with an aluminum body. the new Aluminum Super Duty's are being released on the 24th at the Texas State fair. the big question there is if ford is building a new boxed frame for the F250+'s or if they're going to continue using 50,000PSI 1/4" C channel frames that are designed to articulate on their own.

its not cut and dry.

You are free to assume my comments were directed to you.

I believe the term you are looking for is metalogy not chemistry. And you are guessing on stress points and strength knowing nothing about the bumper at all. That sure sounds like you are angry about something.

For instance do you know how many lateral supports run down the frame on this bumper? I do. Did you know the shackle mounts are not welded onto the bumper? I happen to know they are the base for the bumper and they run all the way to the frame, they just poke through the bumper. Did you know that there is chemistry involved in this kind of bumper? It's called galvanic corrotion, caused by aluminum being mated to steel. Did you know the Hefty brothers addresses this by isolating the contact points of the bumper (and their skids).

It's true aluminum does not have the hardness of steel and its spring back is less forgiving. But there are so many veriables I don't believe you have an entire grasp of the engineering involved and thusly you are less than qualified to take such a stand against the bumpers.

For the record I am a mountain biker mysel and have been since before bikes were aluminum and titanium. Comparing a mountain bike to a winch bumper further illustrates my point of you lack of understanding.

Lastly, you are correct that an aluminum bumper does have a usabl (for recovery) life span. But let's be realistic. If oh wheel once a month all year long in your 5th gen 4Runner. And half of the times you go out you are unfortunate enough to get stuck and need extraction. We can assume that's 6 extractions a year. How many years do you suspect the shelf life is? Not drop that number to once or twice every 18-24 months and you extend your "shelf life" by six times.

My point is, it's all relative. I have always run steel bumpers and even considered getting this one in steel. But having had the opertunity to see both the bumpers and the design process I have chosen to go this direction. I understand you don't think anyone should trust Hefty and they have no idea what they are doing. I get that you have tease arched every single aluminum bumper out there and this one does not stack up. But I ask you, what dog do you have in this fight? Why do you need everyone to think aluminum is so bad for this bumper?

not angry in the slightest, i have also mentioned before that all i have as far as information on the bumpers is the photos that are available on the internet. if Chris doesnt want to advertise the ass end of this bumper so everyone can see what has gone into it up till this point and let speculation flow thats his deal. as far as the shackle tabs running all the way to the frame, thats great but its still vulnerable to the stressors endured by non-linear extraction.

i might no have an engineering degree but i do know what I'm talking about. and mountain bikes were a perfect illustration.

i have nothing against aluminum, i fully support it. i wish the bodies on these things were made out of it. but steel has its place in this world and people forcing aluminum to bare the responsibility of steel is foolish.

You could perhaps talk to Chris as I'm sure he'd have no problem laying it out for you...

He hates forums so you won't get your ultimate answers here

i have no desire to call him to waste his time or mine to discuss the semantics of a bumper i don't ever intend on buying.