There is a lot of truth to that statement, for sure.

I have gone down some really steep stuff in some big equipment, that free fall rush really never goes away.

It will always happen. I ran into some Ouray cops today investigating a 4wheeler that appeared to have rolled from near the top of Engineer down on to Mineral Creek. Hopefully the person riding didn't go with it and caught a ride down the mountain.

There are never any new trails, they only get closed.

Truth to that too, sadly.

Not much of the "wild west" left, it is really surprising to see that in my lifetime so far, things went from out -of-hand (ie Widowmaker, yes I use to see these) to enviro lock-down.

I sort of agree and sort of don't.. This community really has no enforcement power... The only thing we can do here and when were out and about.. is to educate and try to show people the right way. Talking down to them will never work. It should be more of a help each other out thing.

Now...I watched a guy last year in a side by side come 2 inches from killing his child as he attempted to pass me coming down corkscrew gultch on a dark rainy night. He did not like my speed and did not like the fact that I was not willing to pull over to the cliff edge to let him fly by me at 40+ mph. When he tried to pass.. he went up on two wheels and thank god he did not go over the edge. A verbal fight ensued between me and his buddy that was following and the coward never even turned around. And they could not see anything wrong with wanting to pass in those conditions. They only thought I was being an a selfish ******* for not immediately pulling over. Did I mention that they had light bars blinding me as well. You can't and won't help people like that. They will keep doing stupid stuff and falling down cliffs until all the trails are shutdown. The only solution for them is law enforcement.

But the guy in this situation.. I'm pretty sure he is 100% open to education and a little coaching. I've led many newbie groups and even taught a few classes of sorts...it really benefits everyone. So I think that should be the tact here within this group and I'm pretty sure he is a member....

****y stuff happens off road when one jumps on the go, or in this case stop, pedal hard. I agree with your summation.

I remember almost putting my Frontier on its side, or roof, once in a situation like that. Dropped a tire over a ledge I wasn't really expecting and jumped on the brakes. Teetered reeaaal close to flopping.

If Harvey Dent says it shouldn't have happpened, then gosh darned it, it shouldn't have happened.

I am Blaming the Gobi Rack Karma....

It's possible for even a highly experienced driver to make a stupid mistake. No one is perfect.

Poor line choice
Poor guy (or gal)
Poor runner.
Glad they are reportedly ok.


I can't believe that dipped hood didn't keep it from going over.
I wonder if he had weathertech floor mats? If so they should still be in place due to the floor clips, so at least there would be that.
Bro! Sick license plate!
Hopefully his dad is a television repairman with the ultimate set of tools.

If homie is on here, please do not take offense, I assure you it is good natured.

I almost broke my leg while I was up there riding moto recently, due to an unfortunate encounter with a side by side. Ruined my trip second day out. Shit indeed can happen to anyone.
Best of luck.

@LawnDart

I don't want to get this thread locked, and I don't disagree that there is likely no reason for what happened other then poor driving and lack of experience but what good is all the knowledge in the world if the attitude in which its delivered is so poor the recipients don't care and learn nothing? Some very good engineers do this and while they are world experts they could provide so much more value to the org if they would get off the pedestal they sit on.I respect your knowledge base and the HUGE contribute you have been to this community but lets see if we can get the full story and provide help for the owner (they likely already know what they did wrong) and others who read this thread - We do have some very good assumptions already that are likely correct but it would be nice if the owner confirmed

**No I don't believe in participation trophies nor that any one can do anything and we should all just be friends**


Personally I think that very talented, very experiences drivers who tend to tear through the trails at blazing speeds are more likely to get them closed then novice accidents - Both can have deadly results and both can make headlines but its the "Hold this.....and doing 50mph fatality" that get me worked up - But I don't control access to the trails so maybe both are equally bad Its important for the communities who use the trails share as much as they can with those who don't or are new in hopes they either join in the fun or at least understand that it can be done responsibly.

This does highlight it doesn't take a 50k+ rig with a snorkel, lights, lift, hi lift etc to enjoy your self out there. I have seen a lot of stock vehicle having just as much fun as those in buggies ( of course there is a limit there) and no amount of mods makes up for the driver. Same thing with safety features these days - the best safety feature is siting behind the wheel.......for now

All in all it appears no fatality or major injuries (that I have seen) - Very thankful for that stuff can always be replaced

Yes he made a BIG and costly mistake and it's something he'll learn from. I agree that it's not something that should have happened given by the Jeep Renegade that is seen passing by him in the picture but shit can and does always happen. However I don't think that just because someone makes a mistake that it means they're "stupid" or an "ass hat". I get it, this whole overlanding thing has gotten out of control and bringing a lot of new faces to off-roading (myself included) so mistakes are bound to happen.

Have you ever been mountain biking or skiing? It's all about knowing your limits and picking the right line. No amount of money spent on a pair of good ski's or mountain bike can make up for skill and experience (or lack thereof). Sound familiar? I live in a town where people live, eat, and breath that stuff. Indeed I do see the novice rider get in way over their head on a trail and get injured on a trail they should never have been on and conversely I see just as many experienced riders who have done this their entire life get injured on a trail they've ridden "hundreds" of times. The "I clipped an edge" or the "the dirt washed out from underneath me" scenario happens to people of all experiences and no one is immune to it. When these people come into my clinic I don't go ham on them and call them "stupid" or an "ass hat" because chances are they feel like shit already and thinking about what they will do differently next time. The same applies to off-roading.

The only difference between making a mistake in that vs off-roading is if you flip on a mountain bike the bike usually is fine and it will go on. If you flip a 4x4 then it will hit your pocket book a lot harder. Your life could be taken in either scenario really.

Oh boy does this hit close to home.... I've been a bit flipping engineer for 30 years now. I've encountered so many know it all ass hats who get their rocks off on hording knowledge and putting the beat down on the less experienced for mistakes. Luckily, I spent most of my career as their peer or mentor and have been able to coach many of them to realize how counter productive that attitude is in the long run. Don't get me wrong.. I'm not into sharing information and knowledge professionally for free... or living and working in a no consequences "safe" environment... but when you are on the same team... you have to take a different tact and it works 90% of the time.

Now, there have been a few hot shots who were never going to get off their pedestal with coaching...and the story plays out the same every time. They eventually get humbled in a major way by either making huge mistake or just pissing off enough people to where they no longer have a job. It's sort of the law of the universe (some call it karma) and the difference between a really experienced and smart engineer and just a smart one.

Also 100% agree we need the full story here. But even without it, there are some good general take-aways.

• Don't stab the brakes while descending. Use gearing and 4lo and lockers. Be as light and as smooth as possible on the brakes.
• If you start to tip. Let off the brakes and steer into it (if possible). Sometimes throttle out is the only option, but this is a very advanced maneuver, but can be practiced in safe environments.
• Don't load up your roof if doing technical trails. Keep all your heavy gear as low and as centered in the vehicle as possible.
• Don't wheel alone or above your level. Try to get a trail lead who knows the lines and follow those lines. Try to think about why he is doing those lines and you will pick it up. Don't be afraid to ask for help from others.
• Follow the fall line when possible, but keep tires on the high points
• When you can't see what is ahead and it is technical.. Get out and walk it. Even if you are holding up others you will hold them up less with this approach vs flopping or breaking.
• If you do flop, turn engine off ASAP. Pull plugs and turn over once back on all 4s
• Vehicle setup is a big part of the capability equation, but driver is also very much at play. Modify after some experimentation
• Everyone makes mistakes. So don't think it can't and won't ever happen to you. I've seen some really experienced folks (including myself) completely FUp (usually by not paying attention and being distracted) But it is also from being over confident and lazy and not getting out and walking the line first. You can't see out of these trucks. (or really any, but these are especially bad)

The problem is in this scenario is that it wasn't weather. It wasn't a sudden wash out. Etc. it was a pure lack of skill. And we've got a community that has easier access and promotion of locations and trails, but we don't have an emphasis on good and solid training for driver skill.

It's always an emphasis on gear. Not perishable skills. Complacency kills. Or rather it rolls trucks in this case. Training isn't seen as cool. And training fades with time.

I'm sorry the dudes truck is toast. I truly am. But I'm more concerned that someone will finally pull the trigger and close that trail because it's gotten too popular with people who don't have the basic skills to drive down a county road.

Someone can make a stupid mistake without being stupid. But I can't fathom the reason for this crash. But it'll be a death by a 1000 papercuts and black bear will be lost forever as a jeep trail.

Truth of the matter is, we don't know what happened.
Appears to be poor line choice at first glance, but could have been anything.


Doesn't really matter. At the end of the day it's another recordable on Black Bear, which the Sheriff has in fact been wanting to close for quite a few years now. The traffic when I was up there was the worst I have ever seen it. And to be honest, Toyotas comprised about 75% of it.

It's probably only a matter of time, but I would gamble it will be the side by sides that put the final nail in the coffin.

Definitely the roof rack.....definitely