The lowest clearance is at the diff skid behind the engine, not the front skid.

That said, you put 2-3 people in a Subaru and it compresses the suspension enough to be at about 6" clearance, whereas the 4runner doesn't squat nearly as much.

I've had a lifted 3rd gen and now a stock 5th gen and ground clearance is barely an issue. The most likely place to drag is the rear hitch on steep departures. Having the low clearance diff skid near the wheels makes it easy to protect by placing one of the wheels on the protrusion to avoid it rather than around.

The only people bothered by this are rock crawlers who, lets face it, are just too lazy to go hiking or exploring and just wanna sit in a Toyota office chair while pretending to explore ;D

Oh and the KDSS skid is only marginally lower (but still not as low as the front diff skid) because of the extra droop it allows the suspension.

Exactly. Not great ground clearance and not as advertised. My buddies Jeep has 11" of ground clearance stock (not including the diffs). No doubt wind resistance would lower the gas mileage if the vehicle had more clearance from the factory and it wouldn't have met that magical 20 mpg highway if it was higher. Maybe the gas guzzler tax kicks in at 19 mpg.

I have been in the "8.5 to 10" up front boat before and the difference in how often one hits is huge. But it is not a difference in where one gets. I have dragged and hit on 1/6 difficult trails the 4R has done so far, but that aside, all the hitting has been on moderate trails, usually where terrain switches abruptly.

At the end, I still did go for Dobinsons coils up front, which raised the RCI steel skid to 10.25. With that and 9.5 to the rear I am totally fine.

Looking at the angles at which everything is, looks like the 4R could easily have had an extra inch of clearance from factory. At least it comes with excellent rocker panel clearance from the factory.

The JK Rubicons have 9.9, very similar to our 9.6. The JL Rubicons, however, have 10.9. But again, their incredible angles are more of an advantage than that extra clearance under the axles. But I don't really care. The total of trails I would like to drive but would pass on for the time being is very small (Kane Creek, Golden Crack, Gold Bar Rim, Behind the Rocks). I don't have the CO ones on top of my head, but they won't be more than 2-4 that a/I want to do and b/feel like avoiding. I don't care to drive Holy Cross, for example.

I saw some videos on Holy Cross on YouTube and it looks like you practically need a dune buggy to do that one.

I dented my skid plate on mine on Como Lake Rd. before Jaws. That was going downhill, the weak springs from the factory cause it to bounce. But yea, most Colorado 4x4 roads can be done stock. I had no problems with Yankee Boy Basin. Wouldn't be a good idea to do Poughkeepsie Gulch though.

Hoping to make the FJ Summit this year. Do you think I would have any issues with Black Bear or Poughkeepsie? I Have a TRD Pro with stock skids, additional 2" front lift/1 rear and 285s. I would probably bypass the wall though. Thanks.

You should have no problem in a stock 4runner on those trails from what I've seen. I have not done Poughkeepsie - but it's been done in a Subaru. So you should be good to go with a lift and 285s. I have run Black Bear. It should be no problem at all. I did it on my set of street tires on 20" wheels and didn't have a problem. It's mostly just bumpy, nothing really technical unless you do something stupid like drive off the edge. I'd rate it at something like a 3 or 4 out of 10 based on other trail ratings in Moab.

The trails in that area are beautiful. Well worth the trip even though they're not particularly challenging. I'm sure you'll have a great time if you go.

Good to know. Thanks!

Now this is a discussion!

Yes, the Wall on Poughkeepsie Gulch is the only obstacle in the entire Ouray-Silverton area. Imogene is eroded a lot but that's only by the comparatively mild standards of the area. I read on JeepTheUSA that a legal bypass of the Wall was built. If so, that much the better.

Bear in mind that the ultra scenic routes there do not require Poughkeepsie . It is just a connector from Mineral Creek aka Lower Engineer to Lake Como/Hurricane/California.

@Jetboy , if you are referring to a Blue Fox video from a few years ago, no he did not complete the trail. He drove through the boulder field and to the Wall but never attempted it. He has now put a dual range gearbox from Australia via a friend of mine so he might give it a go. But I do not follow the Foz forum anymore.

He did Black Bear twice as well as Mineral Creek but only downhill. I have driven 19 "4x4" trails in my Outback there but not Black Bear or Imogene. Governor Basin was the only rated difficult that I did. I am not sure why it is rated difficult (it does have a super narrow spot but the surface outside Sydney Basin is mild).

That said, don't make Black Bear one of your first trails there. And watch out for gotchas on the easier sections. I think three folks rolled over their IFS rigs on a seemingly mild spot last summer. Including an FJ.

You are wrong. There is not difference between two versions of that skid. There is not difference in general, as that bar is not the lowest point. And my KDSS RCI skid did not drop clearance as you claim it does. I have no idea what you measured, but I have compared my vehicle, to my friend's without KDSS, and they have same clearance before and after various mods.

Can't remeasure it now as have a minor lift and aftermarket skids, and bumper and stuff.

They obviously measured it all wrong, as you are right ant that part is NOT the lowest point.

Poughkeepsie Gulch can be done in your 4Runner if you avoid the expert section. I did the expert section downhill in a Jeep Rubicon with a 2 inch lift no problem but the issue would be the departure and approach angles in a 4Runner. When you see the sign just don't turn. It is the roughest of all the roads around Silverton/Ouray/Telluride. Best view in my opinion is Engineer Pass but some like Imogene Pass the best. Ophir Pass is the easiest one.

I haven't done Black Bear Pass but it looks like the most difficult section is one of the switchbacks that in a longer based vehicle you would have to backup 2 or 3 times. Plenty of YouTube videos on that turn.

Thanks for the info. It's official I got a spot at the FJ Summit this morning. I scheduled Black Bear pass, Poughkeepsie Gulch, and Imogene Pass. Should make for a great time and a trip of a lifetime for my 6 year old son. Now to get my lift and tires on.

I've watched a ton of videos on both trails. Black Bear just seems narrow and the turn you said, along with the steps. Looks like I'll just need to bypass the wall on Poughkeepsie.


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I cannot wait to return to CO in the 4R, but we have different plans for this summer...

It will be a glorious one, with all the snow. It will be nice till later in the season.

I wish I had 8.5" of front skid clearance... mine is more like 6.5" at the lowest point. Less than a foot of snow stops me cold.

I've read through this and several other threads on ground clearance and lifts, and am still completely unclear about what a lift actually does. Will a 2" lift raise that skid plate 2" higher or not?

I can understand under 8, but where do you measure 6.5? Can your springs have sagged that much? EDIT: Oh, you have a winch...

My 1.25" front springs gave me 1.25 at the fenders and 1.5 under the front skid plate which is what matters. But most lifts are for looks so they are measured at the fenders.

A so-called 2" lift may actually give you more than 2" of lift under the front skid plates. Personally, I was at 9.6" new, 8.75 when I put aftermarket 3/16 skid, and now I am at 10.25, which is all I want. This is plenty enough for standard difficult trails.

Now, in the back, a lift will NOT impact your rear differential clearance, which will remain 9.6. Which is fine. You could do bigger tires, but really the enormous cost and hassle of going 285 70 17 is not worth the 0.5" clearance gain. Again, that tire size is popular for looks, not function.

My 1.25/0 leveling is just a temporary measure until I decide what shocks to get. I intend to be 1.5/1 or 1.5/1.25 something like that.

In sum, an independent suspension is lifted through larger tires, or longer coils or spacers but a solid axle can only be lifted through larger tires. So, a small lift in the front is quite easy. Beyond that you need new upper control arms, stress all angles etc.

That's for stock weight. With a front winch, etc, you will want coils with the correct spring rate for that extra weight. But if you get coils that are too stiff, then that is an issue too. Look into the Dobinsons thread, that is a great selection of quality coils that come in all sorts of rates and heights.