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Old 04-20-2019, 05:30 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volke View Post
You should really read this, particularly the section titled "reduce preload"

Coilover Spring Rates for Toyota Tacoma & 4Runner | AccuTune Off-Road

The misinformation on this forum is astounding. Adding more preload to coilovers just changes the ride height. It doesn't make the ride harsh unless you lift too high and run out of down travel to soak up dips, or the spring hits solid length before the shock bottoms out on bumps, neither of which will happen on a 4Runner, even with a plate bumper.
No Pete.
I don't need to read that.
I know what coil overs do, and yes, I was referring to too much preload ruining the ride hence the word "crazy".
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Old 04-20-2019, 05:42 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrub1 View Post
No Pete.
I don't need to read that.
I know what coil overs do, and yes, I was referring to too much preload ruining the ride hence the word "crazy".
Some people on here refer to anything above 2.5" lift without higher rate(650, 700) springs as crazy because the coils are "cranked down too far" and "it makes the ride harsh." If that's not what you meant, then I'm sorry, for assuming. "Crazy" is a very subjective term.
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Old 04-20-2019, 05:45 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigair96 View Post
Why do you regret the RTT?
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Originally Posted by Shadytype View Post
I second this question. I have beem thi king about one.
They take up your roof rack space. The weight and air drag penalty resulting in decreased MPG and driveability. You have to be careful about what parking garages you can and can't go into. The soft shell ones can be a PITA to close back up. You can probably get your ground tent setup and put away in not much more time. If you want to break camp or drive off you have to start the process all over again.

If you get a RTT definitely get a hardshell. More aerodynamic and easy to setup and put away. However you're still going to deal with something taking up your roof space and garage parking. Also if you have a dog it's harder to get them up and down.

It's not for everyone and I'd suggest thinking really hard it before shelling out $$$ for one. There's pro's and con's with everything and it's a personal choice.
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Old 04-20-2019, 06:09 PM #19
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Originally Posted by KingTaco View Post
This is my answer too. So much money, weight, effort, and commitment. As nice as they were, the benefits just weren't worth it for me in a daily driver when I have 2 kids and a dog. Now I built a cargo plate and I can take/leave what I need. Thrilled with it.
What is this cargo plate you speak of? Pics?
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Old 04-20-2019, 06:34 PM #20
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What is this cargo plate you speak of? Pics?
But of course...
Cargo area "flat plate" mod bolt holes
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Old 04-20-2019, 06:38 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrub1 View Post
You are going to love them.
Just don't go crazy with the preload.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volke View Post
You should really read this, particularly the section titled "reduce preload"

Coilover Spring Rates for Toyota Tacoma & 4Runner | AccuTune Off-Road

The misinformation on this forum is astounding. Adding more preload to coilovers just changes the ride height. It doesn't make the ride harsh unless you lift too high and run out of down travel to soak up dips, or the spring hits solid length before the shock bottoms out on bumps, neither of which will happen on a 4Runner, even with a plate bumper.
I understand this. I am just aiming for 1.5-2” front paired with the Eibach 1” rear spring I purchased.
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Old 04-20-2019, 07:10 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrandom View Post
You just confirmed what he stated "Don't go crazy with the preload". You think what you are seeing is misinformation (I don't disagreee there are misinformed people, not as much as you think), when in fact, crazy preload is what a lot of people do here. Resulting in a harsher ride.

What you were saying mechanically doesn't makes much sense, if you compress spring and it needs to absorb upstroke, particularly with modern springs that have different rates of absorption through the stroke, you are lessening smooth dampening by limiting up travel, simple physics. The longer something has to slow down the less harsh the curve.

From the same site you quote earlier:
I'm sorry, but this exactly the kind of misinformation I was referring to.

Adding more preload does not change the compressed length(or load) of the spring at ride height. It simply changes the overall length of the shock at ride height. And it certainly does not change anything about how much spring travel is available to absorb bumps. In fact, since you raise the vehicle higher, there's more up travel available in the shock. You will not run into issues running out of spring compression on any 600# spring on a Icon/Fox/King shock no matter how heavy of a bumper or how many accessories you have unless you somehow add around 1000 lbs of additional weight. Will you get a lot of dive or body roll if you're too heavy? Yes. Will the ride be too stiff and harsh? Definitely not unless you don't have enough damping to stop your suspension from bottoming out.

The only exception to this is if you add enough preload that the weight of the vehicle is not able to compress the shock at all off it's fully extended length. In this case you have more preload in the spring than the weight of the front of your vehicle.

EDIT: Guess you deleted your post...
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Last edited by Volke; 04-20-2019 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:15 PM #23
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I have been planning a Solid Axle Swap for a while and my 35's were in need of replacement but I wasn't ready to the the SAS and 40's yet so decided to buy 37's and make a "few" mods to cater for the bigger wheels until I got around to doing the SAS. Turned into a LOT of work to really make the 37's stuff in the wheel wells without restricting uptravel too much. Much of the money and mods required to make the 37's work I would have been better off putting towards the SAS project and just buying another set of 35's.

Drawer system. I bought it second hand and I resold it after a few years, but it was annoying when I wanted the full space of the cargo area.

"Cheaper" Ham radio. Wish I had one with APRS.

Rock lights. Waste of time.

Cheap sleeping bags - they are so narrow it's impossible to move in them.

Power inverter.
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:28 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBoomer04 View Post
I have been planning a Solid Axle Swap for a while and my 35's were in need of replacement but I wasn't ready to the the SAS and 40's yet so decided to buy 37's and make a "few" mods to cater for the bigger wheels until I got around to doing the SAS. Turned into a LOT of work to really make the 37's stuff in the wheel wells without restricting uptravel too much. Much of the money and mods required to make the 37's work I would have been better off putting towards the SAS project and just buying another set of 35's.

Drawer system. I bought it second hand and I resold it after a few years, but it was annoying when I wanted the full space of the cargo area.

"Cheaper" Ham radio. Wish I had one with APRS.

Rock lights. Waste of time.

Cheap sleeping bags - they are so narrow it's impossible to move in them.

Power inverter.
Creeping on your profile and I can't find a build thread, but your sig is interesting. Is there anywhere that I can see pics or more info on your truck?
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:31 PM #25
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[QUOTE=Volke;3275396]I'm sorry, but this exactly the kind of misinformation I was referring to.QUOTE]

OMG Please stop!!!! You are the one spreading misinformation.

Quote:
Adding more preload does not change the compressed length(or load) of the spring at ride height.
What?? Okay Mr. Mechanical Engineer the bottom seat of the spring is fixed and the upper seat is adjustable. If you dial in more preload by cranking down the adjustor then you are absolutely change the compressed length of the spring. The upper and lower seats are getting close together and there is a spring in the middle so it HAS to compress and get shorter.

Quote:
And it certainly does not change anything about how much spring travel is available to absorb bumps.
It certainly does! There is a absolute given amount of spring travel from rest position and coil bind position. If you dial in more preload the spring is compressed and gets shorter, therefore getting closer to coil bind. There is less spring travel available now. It's very simple math here.

Quote:
In fact, since you raise the vehicle higher, there's more up travel available in the shock.
Shock travel is irrelevant if there is not enough spring travel to use it.

Please keep in mind I'm only refuting what you said in quotes. I'm not speaking about terms of spring rates or ride quality. Leaner spring rates aren't affected by Preload to a certain extent until you are closer to bind. While preload can have some affect on ride quality there are several other factors along with preload that come into play.
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Last edited by Bayou_Pro; 04-20-2019 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 04-20-2019, 08:46 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuffaluffigus View Post
Creeping on your profile and I can't find a build thread, but your sig is interesting. Is there anywhere that I can see pics or more info on your truck?
My SAS should be finished in a week or so. (We are being held up by the Atlas Case). Nothing has been put up on the build process on forums because there's some propriety fab work (brackets and such) that we don't want to reveal until it's all done.

My only build thread was on Toyota120.com as "expat" but not sure how up-to- date that is. I may have posted stuff about the Tacoma axle conversion.
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Last edited by WhiteBoomer04; 04-20-2019 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 04-20-2019, 09:36 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayou_Pro View Post

OMG Please stop!!!! You are the one spreading misinformation.



What?? Okay Mr. Mechanical Engineer the bottom seat of the spring is fixed and the upper seat is adjustable. If you dial in more preload by cranking down the adjustor then you are absolutely change the compressed length of the spring. The upper and lower seats are getting close together and there is a spring in the middle so it HAS to compress and get shorter.



It certainly does! There is a absolute given amount of spring travel from rest position and coil bind position. If you dial in more preload the spring is compressed and gets shorter, therefore getting closer to coil bind. There is less spring travel available now. It's very simple math here.



Shock travel is irrelevant if there is not enough spring travel to use it.

Please watch some more youtube and report back.
And you apparently don't get it either...

The bottom seat of the spring is the rod end which is at full extension when it's off the vehicle. Think about what happens when you install it on the vehicle. The shock and spring compress further. The total amount amount of spring compression at ride height stays the same even if you increase the preload. It just takes less additional compression for it to reach equilibrium, meaning your ride height increases.

Or, how about I put it into simple math...

Let's say you have a 4Runner with 2500 lbs over the front axle and it's split evenly from side to side. This means each wheel has 1250 lbs of weight on it. The front control arms have a 2:1 motion ratio, so the load in each spring at ride height is 1250 x 2 = 2500 lbs.

A 600 lb spring would need 2500 / 600 = ~4.16 inches of compression to support the 4Runner weight in the front. The 4Runner shocks have 14" free length springs, so if you were to put 0 preload, the springs would be 9.84 inches compressed with the vehicle on the ground and the 4Runner would ride at a height of 4.16 inches less than the full extended length of the shock.

Now let's see what happens when you add 1.5" of preload to the spring...

Each spring still needs 2500 lbs of force to support the weight of the 4Runner, so the total compression required is still 2500 / 600 = ~4.16 inches.

Now, the springs already have 1.5" of compression, so on vehicle, they only need to compress an additional 4.16" - 1.5" = 2.66" to reach 2500 lbs of force. The compressed length of the spring at ride height is still 9.84", but the 4Runner rides at whatever ride height is 2.66" less than the full extended length of the shock. Since we know the motion ratio and spring preload, we can say that the truck is actually lifted 2 x 1.5 = 3 inches compared to the first scenario.

So in both cases, the spring has the same length, load and additional remaining compression. Nothing changes about your ride harshness. Though actually the second scenario would ride better over dips because 0 preload is actually bad, but that's a more advanced topic.

The only way the spring load would be higher is if you compress the spring to less than 9.84" before you install it on the 4Runner in which case your ride height will stay at full droop and ride like crap. Nobody is doing this.

But yeah... what do I know? I'm just a lowly mechanical engineer... I'm no match for the YouTube educated...
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Last edited by Volke; 04-20-2019 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 04-20-2019, 10:02 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volke View Post
The bottom seat of the spring is the rod end which is at full extension when it's off the vehicle. Think about what happens when you install it on the vehicle. The shock and spring compress further. The total amount amount of spring compression at ride height stays the same even if you increase the preload. It just takes less additional compression for it to reach equilibrium, meaning your ride height increases.
And I completely agree with that. My response was to the statement you made that preload doesn't have any affect of compressed spring length.

Quote:
But yeah... what do I know? I'm just a lowly mechanical engineer... I'm no match for the YouTube educated...
Yes I know and it's very easy to tell. You defiantly have that, I'm smarter than you because I have a degree, attitude a lot on engineers have. Not a blanket statement but sometimes engineers are some of the smartest yet dumbest people you'll meet. I work with your kind everyday. Last month we had a leak on a METHANE Pump and the engineer said to make sure that we had all of the methane spill picked up and disposed of properly.

As far as my Youtube education goes. I've been racing, building cars and suspension components, and setting up race cars and trucks for over 30 years. I was setting up coilovers before there was youtube. I don't have a degree but I'll run circles around you any day automotive speaking. Other then wiring, I hate wiring.

Have fun, enjoy your 4runner and I won't debate this any longer with you.
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Old 04-20-2019, 10:03 PM #29
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Sorry. Wrong thread. Oops.

I thought I was discussing regretful mods.
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Old 04-20-2019, 10:23 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBoomer04 View Post
I have been planning a Solid Axle Swap for a while and my 35's were in need of replacement but I wasn't ready to the the SAS and 40's yet so decided to buy 37's and make a "few" mods to cater for the bigger wheels until I got around to doing the SAS. Turned into a LOT of work to really make the 37's stuff in the wheel wells without restricting uptravel too much. Much of the money and mods required to make the 37's work I would have been better off putting towards the SAS project and just buying another set of 35's.

Drawer system. I bought it second hand and I resold it after a few years, but it was annoying when I wanted the full space of the cargo area.

"Cheaper" Ham radio. Wish I had one with APRS.

Rock lights. Waste of time.

Cheap sleeping bags - they are so narrow it's impossible to move in them.

Power inverter.
Why were the rock lights a waste of time? Looking to use them as a source of light while camping.
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