User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 06-14-2019, 02:07 PM #46
Big_Cuss Big_Cuss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 168
Big_Cuss is on a distinguished road
Big_Cuss Big_Cuss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 168
Big_Cuss is on a distinguished road
Eager to see afr, advance, max knock degrees, stuff like that!

But guys, as a definitive statement, there are all sorts of "counter-intuitive" things about engines and operation. Things such as...

-Engines actually often wearing LESS at full operating temp (190F coolant) than while cruising lower.
-Engines actually wearing LESS when the oil is getting "up there" toward the end of it's 10,000 mile change. This is because of the rate at which some additives added to the oil tend to come out of solution and do their jobs inside the engine. So for instance, one additive might work sooner after oil change as a solvent, to clean the engine, and then slowly fade out of the system as the anti-wear additive takes over and bonds to the engine and piston/surface walls. And if ur constantly over-changing your oil, it's always hitting the internals hard with the initial, strong-biting solvent stuff, and never giving the anti-wear stuff (like ZDDP) time to do its thing.
That's just a simple example. There are a lot of other more complex chemistry things going on, too.
-Engines running at higher rpm, toward peak power and stoichometric, running less rich, and having less fouling-impact on the downstream exhaust and catalytic system.

So all in all, there's really no correlation between rpms and engine durability, unless you're into the redline or running at extreme load all the time. 2,000rpm and highway load (top gear) is probably thus a little worse than 3,000rpm and highway load (top gear), as the effective load at 2,000rpm is worse and knock is more likely as the engine is closer to lugging more often. But either way, the 1GR-FE is "fine" at both operating levels.

So focus on how the tune impacts the AFR, knock, and overall power, not minor RPM differences lol
Big_Cuss is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 11:04 PM #47
fugereb fugereb is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Shakopee, MN
Posts: 15
fugereb is on a distinguished road
fugereb fugereb is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Shakopee, MN
Posts: 15
fugereb is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by epjfsa View Post
I've posted this in other related threads before, but there's an unconfirmed and uncited rumor that these engines adjust to fuel octane and actually make more power with higher octane fuels (as compared to a normal car, which simply wouldn't). So before I would spend the money, I would need to see dynos and proof of three things.

1. Change in drivability isn't just remapped throttle (less roundabout way of doing what a pedal commander does)
2. Change in power/torque is from a tune, and not just running higher octane fuel
3. A real A to B dyno from multiple vehicles, not some unrealistic cartoon looking thing on the vendor's site
From what I understand the latest Tundra engine has an adaptive ECU to take advantage of higher octane however, the 4Runner does not.

If you look at the VR Tune dyno charts on the Tundra you will see that the 4Runner produces a much higher % gain with the VR Tune vs. the Tundra; evidence of such that the Tundra does have an octane adaptive ECU and the 4Runner does not.

Dyno charts on Vivid Racing site for the 4Runner are back to back tests on premium fuel stock vs. VR tune.

Last edited by fugereb; 06-14-2019 at 11:05 PM. Reason: typo
fugereb is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-14-2019, 11:19 PM #48
Big_Cuss Big_Cuss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 168
Big_Cuss is on a distinguished road
Big_Cuss Big_Cuss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 168
Big_Cuss is on a distinguished road
Not necessarily true. Anyone can go from a tank of 87 to a tank of 91 and feel a considerable power, torque, and smoothness difference.
Big_Cuss is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-15-2019, 12:13 AM #49
1jzgte 1jzgte is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UTAH
Posts: 753
1jzgte will become famous soon enough
1jzgte 1jzgte is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UTAH
Posts: 753
1jzgte will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by epjfsa View Post
I've posted this in other related threads before, but there's an unconfirmed and uncited rumor that these engines adjust to fuel octane and actually make more power with higher octane fuels (as compared to a normal car, which simply wouldn't). So before I would spend the money, I would need to see dynos and proof of three things.

1. Change in drivability isn't just remapped throttle (less roundabout way of doing what a pedal commander does)
2. Change in power/torque is from a tune, and not just running higher octane fuel
3. A real A to B dyno from multiple vehicles, not some unrealistic cartoon looking thing on the vendor's site
Toyota GR engine - Wikipedia

An updated version of this engine features Dual VVT-i, increasing output to 270 hp (201 kW; 274 PS) at 5600 rpm and 278 lb⋅ft (377 N⋅m) at 4400 rpm on 87 octane and 285 hp (213 kW; 289 PS) and 289 lb⋅ft (392 N⋅m) on 91 octane.
1jzgte is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-15-2019, 12:17 AM #50
1jzgte 1jzgte is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UTAH
Posts: 753
1jzgte will become famous soon enough
1jzgte 1jzgte is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: UTAH
Posts: 753
1jzgte will become famous soon enough
Ditto. I can feel the same difference on 91. The ecu wont allow advance timing until after a few consecutive tanks of 91 to flush out lower octane fuel. Which is why it takes a few tanks to feel a difference
1jzgte is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-15-2019, 10:58 PM #51
fugereb fugereb is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Shakopee, MN
Posts: 15
fugereb is on a distinguished road
fugereb fugereb is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Shakopee, MN
Posts: 15
fugereb is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jzgte View Post
Toyota GR engine - Wikipedia

An updated version of this engine features Dual VVT-i, increasing output to 270 hp (201 kW; 274 PS) at 5600 rpm and 278 lb⋅ft (377 N⋅m) at 4400 rpm on 87 octane and 285 hp (213 kW; 289 PS) and 289 lb⋅ft (392 N⋅m) on 91 octane.
Encouraging read however, I ran many consecutive tanks for 92 octane and never noticed anything to write about. As much to say if this was a solution I wouldn't have purchased a Pedal Commander last year.

With the VR Tune, writing about it and sold my Pedal Commander. Anyone else out there have VR Tune results to share?
fugereb is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-16-2019, 12:11 AM #52
maxp0wer maxp0wer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NoVa
Posts: 43
maxp0wer is on a distinguished road
maxp0wer maxp0wer is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: NoVa
Posts: 43
maxp0wer is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlievee View Post
Why would you not want the option of going over 114? The 4runner is easy to drive, even at speed. Likes to cruise at 95 on the long haul if your not careful. Never drive faster then you can see. If I need to drive 150 mph I want that option and could care less what a coffee shop hipster has to say about it, because if I'm driving that fast it's for a reason.
Except... nowhere is it legal to drive that fast on public roads. I'm fine with going a few over. But yeah it really pisses me off when I see a**holes putting others at risk. But apparently some people think they are special and the rules should not apply to them. And I'm no hipster.
maxp0wer is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-16-2019, 08:30 AM #53
epjfsa epjfsa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: MD
Posts: 211
epjfsa will become famous soon enough
epjfsa epjfsa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: MD
Posts: 211
epjfsa will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Cuss View Post
Not necessarily true. Anyone can go from a tank of 87 to a tank of 91 and feel a considerable power, torque, and smoothness difference.
Unfortunately the rule of thumb is that this ISN'T true. A typical vehicle with a fixed engine map isn't able to produce any more power (or operate any differently) on higher octane fuels. Meaning the ECU or perhaps even the physical design of the engine can only advance spark or make other adjustments to maximize power on 87 octane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1jzgte View Post
Toyota GR engine - Wikipedia

An updated version of this engine features Dual VVT-i, increasing output to 270 hp (201 kW; 274 PS) at 5600 rpm and 278 lb⋅ft (377 N⋅m) at 4400 rpm on 87 octane and 285 hp (213 kW; 289 PS) and 289 lb⋅ft (392 N⋅m) on 91 octane.
Like I said, it's uncited and is therefore not proof of anything. I could have added that line to Wikipedia myself out of the blue, so without citation we have no idea what the original source is. We also have no A:B dynos on higher octane fuels to suggest that it's true. I've put a few tanks of 93 in and though it does seem to make a difference, the placebo effect is very strong!
__________________
'16 TEP
'13 Mini Cooper S
'97 BMW M3 sedan
epjfsa is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-16-2019, 08:55 PM #54
Ezlife45 Ezlife45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 247
Ezlife45 is on a distinguished road
Ezlife45 Ezlife45 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 247
Ezlife45 is on a distinguished road
for daily driving I run 87 for road trips I like to run premium. Some of my hwys are 75 mph posted, like having the comfort of possibly having a little extra available power.
Ezlife45 is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-16-2019, 09:55 PM #55
newchapter newchapter is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 17
newchapter is on a distinguished road
newchapter newchapter is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 17
newchapter is on a distinguished road
So would you say that overall it increases drivability ?
newchapter is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-16-2019, 10:15 PM #56
thennen's Avatar
thennen thennen is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 636
thennen has a spectacular aura about thennen has a spectacular aura about thennen has a spectacular aura about
thennen thennen is offline
Member
thennen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 636
thennen has a spectacular aura about thennen has a spectacular aura about thennen has a spectacular aura about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Cuss View Post
Not necessarily true. Anyone can go from a tank of 87 to a tank of 91 and feel a considerable power, torque, and smoothness difference.
The only time I really paid attention to this was on a cross-country trip with my 3rd Gen pulling a small u-haul trailer in 2012. I was more curious about whether straight gasoline would give different mpg versus 10% ethanol. It seemed to return maybe 2 mpg more, but was also more expensive. Probably was higher octane too. Again, I was more curious about the blend difference.
thennen is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-16-2019, 11:49 PM #57
Big_Cuss Big_Cuss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 168
Big_Cuss is on a distinguished road
Big_Cuss Big_Cuss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 168
Big_Cuss is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by epjfsa View Post
Unfortunately the rule of thumb is that this ISN'T true. A typical vehicle with a fixed engine map isn't able to produce any more power (or operate any differently) on higher octane fuels. Meaning the ECU or perhaps even the physical design of the engine can only advance spark or make other adjustments to maximize power on 87 octane.



Like I said, it's uncited and is therefore not proof of anything. I could have added that line to Wikipedia myself out of the blue, so without citation we have no idea what the original source is. We also have no A:B dynos on higher octane fuels to suggest that it's true. I've put a few tanks of 93 in and though it does seem to make a difference, the placebo effect is very strong!
Unfortunately, dude, you don't know what the Hell you are talking about.

ECUs have been adding or pulling timing in response to detected or inferred octane for like 15-20 years, now. What else do you want? It's not like compression will be variable. That technology only came out within the last year, from Infiniti.

So stop running your ignorant mouth. Hell, you don't need experience running hundreds of advanced ECUTEK logs and tuning your own Mazda MZR engine (a 2010 car, from 2006 or earlier design at that) to have proof. Just check out the Toyota manual from the 2006 Tacoma:

From the 2006 Tacoma Owners Manual
"OCTANE RATING
2TR- FE engine - Select Octane Rating 87 or higher.
1GR- FE engine - Select Octane Rating 87 or higher. For improved vehicle performance, use premium unleaded gasoline with an Octane Rating of 91 or higher."

The 1GR-FE pulls less timing from theoretical optimum, the higher octane you use, up to about 93. Or rather, the inferred octane, based on how progressively long it can go without detecting significant knock.

It also adjusts the vvti tables based on the same, such that when you're on 91-93 octane, it broadens the torque curve a bit, so max torque comes in a few hundred rpm sooner and lasts a few hundred rpm longer. There are literally hundreds of tables inside modern ECUs. Nothing "fixed".

These principles are the exact same ones leveraged by tuners like Vivid, who if you couldn't read, actually offer various tuning levels based around the octane you use, too lol.

Btw, to give you an idea of how long ECUs have been "advanced", my 2010 Mazda with the 2006 original engine and ECU design, was still capable of flashing to RaceROM, which let me use the Cruise Control speed switch to toggle between various tunes on the fly, with the rev counter needle changing from 1k, 2k, and 3k on the fly briefly, to indicate whether I was in "bad gas", "race tune", or "data logging" mode.

Last edited by Big_Cuss; 06-16-2019 at 11:51 PM.
Big_Cuss is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-18-2019, 04:19 PM #58
epjfsa epjfsa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: MD
Posts: 211
epjfsa will become famous soon enough
epjfsa epjfsa is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: MD
Posts: 211
epjfsa will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big_Cuss View Post
Unfortunately, dude, you don't know what the Hell you are talking about.

ECUs have been adding or pulling timing in response to detected or inferred octane for like 15-20 years, now. What else do you want? It's not like compression will be variable. That technology only came out within the last year, from Infiniti.

So stop running your ignorant mouth. Hell, you don't need experience running hundreds of advanced ECUTEK logs and tuning your own Mazda MZR engine (a 2010 car, from 2006 or earlier design at that) to have proof. Just check out the Toyota manual from the 2006 Tacoma:

From the 2006 Tacoma Owners Manual
"OCTANE RATING
2TR- FE engine - Select Octane Rating 87 or higher.
1GR- FE engine - Select Octane Rating 87 or higher. For improved vehicle performance, use premium unleaded gasoline with an Octane Rating of 91 or higher."

The 1GR-FE pulls less timing from theoretical optimum, the higher octane you use, up to about 93. Or rather, the inferred octane, based on how progressively long it can go without detecting significant knock.

It also adjusts the vvti tables based on the same, such that when you're on 91-93 octane, it broadens the torque curve a bit, so max torque comes in a few hundred rpm sooner and lasts a few hundred rpm longer. There are literally hundreds of tables inside modern ECUs. Nothing "fixed".

These principles are the exact same ones leveraged by tuners like Vivid, who if you couldn't read, actually offer various tuning levels based around the octane you use, too lol.

Btw, to give you an idea of how long ECUs have been "advanced", my 2010 Mazda with the 2006 original engine and ECU design, was still capable of flashing to RaceROM, which let me use the Cruise Control speed switch to toggle between various tunes on the fly, with the rev counter needle changing from 1k, 2k, and 3k on the fly briefly, to indicate whether I was in "bad gas", "race tune", or "data logging" mode.
Your super long, emotional, and kludged together reply was unnecessary, having completely misinterpreted what I said. But thank you for the lesson on engine controls. Have you considered submitting your ideas as a TRB paper?
__________________
'16 TEP
'13 Mini Cooper S
'97 BMW M3 sedan

Last edited by epjfsa; 06-18-2019 at 04:25 PM.
epjfsa is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-18-2019, 10:32 PM #59
Hadelson's Avatar
Hadelson Hadelson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Breinigsville, Pennsylvania
Posts: 312
Hadelson is on a distinguished road
Hadelson Hadelson is offline
Member
Hadelson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Breinigsville, Pennsylvania
Posts: 312
Hadelson is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlievee View Post
There's a guy or two that plays drag race in here. As for the Nürburgring ring, a few Euro will get you on the track on non-race/ testing days.
Why pay the Euro when you can run unrestricted on many sections of the Autobahn?
Hadelson is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Old 06-18-2019, 11:52 PM #60
Big_Cuss Big_Cuss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 168
Big_Cuss is on a distinguished road
Big_Cuss Big_Cuss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: CA
Posts: 168
Big_Cuss is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by epjfsa View Post
Your super long, emotional, and kludged together reply was unnecessary, having completely misinterpreted what I said. But thank you for the lesson on engine controls. Have you considered submitting your ideas as a TRB paper?
Unfortunately, you poor, slackjawed and guffawing indigent, if you want to master engine tuning, you'll have to a) suppress the frequent pangs of frustration and desire to quit, and continue on a path toward more than semiliterate reading comprehension, and b) be subjected to voluminous documentation and training materials far in excess of my abhorrent few hundreds of words or a single TRB paper.

Also unfortunately, all the above effort would be - in the opinion of this humble writer - a fools errand. I therefore recommend you continue to go about your way, guffawing at passing butterflies, contributing false information to internet forum threads about how engine controls work and how octane affects them, and wondering why your boogers taste salty today but were altogether sweeter yesterday.

Last edited by Big_Cuss; 06-18-2019 at 11:57 PM.
Big_Cuss is offline   Reply With QuoteReply With Quote
Reply

Tags
highway , miles , mpg , pedal , tune

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Vivid Racing ECU flash tune. Any detail? speedyglx 5th gen T4Rs 132 08-16-2019 01:15 PM
2005 Toyota 4Runner SR5 4WD ***Fox Racing, Demello, Method Racing*** The Giz For Sale: Vehicles 18 09-14-2016 06:41 PM
1999 4Runner 3rz K&N filter results. houjames98765 3rd gen T4Rs 3 07-20-2015 09:48 PM
OFFICIAL LED Light Bar group buy - Vivid Illumination memario1214 For Sale: T4R Items 27 08-09-2014 09:42 PM
4Runner Articulation Test Results chitown4x4 4th Gen T4Rs 3 10-27-2008 05:01 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:39 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
***This site is an unofficial Toyota site, and is not officially endorsed, supported, authorized by or affiliated with Toyota. All company, product, or service names references in this web site are used for identification purposes only and may be trademarks of their respective owners. The Toyota name, marks, designs and logos, as well as Toyota model names, are registered trademarks of Toyota Motor Corporation***Ad Management plugin by RedTyger
 
Copyright © 2019


Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.