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Old 07-16-2019, 01:25 PM #1
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Do any KDSS (or susp. upgraded) owners have steering wheel vibration? Please Respond!

Hey Guys,

I really hate to start a new thread, I've read every single thread ever posted about the dreaded steering wheel vibration, and I seriously never recall seeing anyone complaining that their KDSS had it.

Run down from the Steering Wheel Vibration Poll Thread:
- I have 2018 TRD ORP that has the dreaded 60-65mph steering wheel vibration with no fix in sight.
- Started around 5k miles.
- Thought it was OEM tires, bought trusty Michelin Defender LTXs - NO FIX
- Local Toyota Dealership has redone alignment at least 6-10 times and road-forced more than that along with Toyota's regional rep doing the same things along with also re-torquing the suspension and God knows what else they have tried...
- Tires and wheels have been switched to and from other vehicles.
- Tires and wheels are 100% not the issue.
- Replaced entire power steering rack - NO FIX
- Toyota has escalated my case and a tech from Toyota North America is flying from TX to SC next week to look at my car.

WHY I WANT HELP:
- It seems to me that KDSS people have not had this issue, if it's true, then I can report to the Toyota rep and maybe they install that as a fix in my car??

- The only people that I have found (4 on here and other forums) that have found a fix to their issue on their own was to upgrade the entire suspension: struts, coils & UCAs and I need to relay this info to the Toyota Rep so maybe they could try to throw in the new TRD Pro suspension in it as well.

I test drove a TRD Pro that did not vibrate last weekend. The only difference there are the shocks and coils, they have the same UCAs, but I wonder if I were to put SPC UCAs with beefier poly bushing that it would dampen the road feel to the steering wheel.

I am fighting to keep my 4Runner, but I am reaching the end of my patience as has been going on for 2 months now and I've now been without my car for a total of 15 days and I know they have out well over 400 miles on my car (using my gas!) in order to test it.

Luckily, it seems that I am getting farther than anyone else on the forum has with this issue because I have not heard from anyone else that a Toyota North America tech has flown out to check out a car. I am so glad to have bought my car at Dave Edwards Toyota in Spartanburg, SC, because Mr. Edwards has my back.

This past Saturday I had a nearly 30 minutes meeting with him after test driving the no vibrating TRD Pro and he promised me twice that if they haven't fixed it in another couple of weeks that he will get me out of my car, and into a non-vibrating unit. He's the one that actually made the Toyota Regional Rep come look at the car after the Toyota Tech Support tried to call it a "natural characteristic of the vehicle" over the phone.

I'm hoping for the best here, so everyone with this issue can have a fix.

I will keep you all updated, but let me know if your KDSS has had this issue, or if your suspension upgrade has FIXED this issue so I can report to the Toyota NA Tech.

THANKS!
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:39 PM #2
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I have an stock 2011 Trail with KDSS. It's never had a vibration problem. As the OEM tires were approaching their wear limit, steering was getting noticeably softer and wandered more than usual, so I replaced the OEM tires with the same size in Michelin tires from Costco. Nothing special about the wheel balancing. 105,000 miles on the vehicle today and I still have the original front suspension and steering components. I installed rear Bilstein shocks at about 45,000 miles.

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Old 07-16-2019, 01:47 PM #3
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Yeah like it was brushed on. It's either fine variations in the front end or the steering rack itself. Doubt the sway bars are the issue. + I doubt they can add KDSS.

Either way it sounds like they are going to sort you out. Glad to hear they might swap it out! That's ideal.

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Old 07-16-2019, 01:48 PM #4
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Here is my input\info: no vibration before or after the lift and AT tires- out all BOF trucks and SUV I ever drove\owned (including previous gens 4Runners I had (see my signature)- my current 4runner (2013 Trail with KDSS) has smoothest ride.

I do not see how they can add KDSS as a "fix".... unless they will offer you a buyout and you can upgrade to the 4Runner with KDSS after that.

In addition: I have not tried TRD Pro, so I can say how it would compare with KDSS ride, but when I “test” drove SR5 4x4 (had it as a loner for almost a week) I did not like the feel of the ride … and it was not just floating and body roll… honestly I don’t remember feeling the steering wheel vibration… but what I do remember is fleeing a “jitter” in the truck… like the whole truck wanted to vibrate… and could not settle… and that feeling was amplified when I towed very light trailer with that 4Runner.

I am sorry you have this issue… and I wish you the best in resolving it.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:52 PM #5
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KDSS w/Lift here.

No vibration before or after.
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:56 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progress4m View Post
Here is my input\info: no vibration before or after the lift and AT tires- out all BOF trucks and SUV I ever drove\owned (including previous gens 4Runners I had (see my signature)- my current 4runner (2013 Trail with KDSS) has smoothest ride.

I do not see how they can add KDSS as a "fix".... unless they will offer you a buyout and you can upgrade to the 4Runner with KDSS after that.

In addition: I have not tried TRD Pro, so I can say how it would compare with KDSS ride, but when I “test” drove SR5 4x4 (had it as a loner for almost a week) I did not like the feel of the ride … and it was not just floating and body roll… honestly I don’t remember feeling the steering wheel vibration… but what I do remember is fleeing a “jitter” in the truck… like the whole truck wanted to vibrate… and could not settle… and that feeling was amplified when I towed very light trailer with that 4Runner.

I am sorry you have this issue… and I wish you the best in resolving it.
Thanks for that reply.

I know they could throw the TRD Pro suspension in there no problem, but I don't know if they can add KDSS. It would probably be too expensive, but if it comes down to getting me into another 4Runner I'm betting on one with KDSS since it "seems" like you guys are not having any issues.

Yes, your loaner SR5 felt exactly like my TRD ORP and countless others do. As a person who has owned 3 gens of 4Runners... It sucks!

My dealer said Toyota admitted they have a problem and they have no idea how to fix it.

So while I am not hopeful that the Toyota NA tech can fix it, I am hopeful that there may be a version of the 4Runner that does not have this issue.

That being said, I do really hope they can fix my car, so they can out out an official recall.

I guess we will see what happens next week.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:02 PM #7
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FWIW - they will not add KDSS. KDSS models have a different frame. I don't know what the differences are - I'd guess they are very minor, but the frame part number is different and likely has some different mounting bolt locations or something along those lines. Also it would be cheaper to simply replace it with a KDSS model than install KDSS on an existing one.

I have KDSS and have had some steering vibrations with unbalanced tires like this issue. I actually currently have a bit of vibration right in that speed range. However, generally I have not had a problem with it and I assume it's due to my tires wearing out and being in need of a re-balance.

The fix that is used on the Lexus GX models per a Lexus TSB is to switch the spring in the steering rack to reduce feedback. This is something that I had an issue with in a 3rd gen 4Runner that has a very similar design and the same steering shimmy issue at times. On those you could just get underneath and actually adjust the spring preload in the steering rack yourself. It was pretty easy to do. On the 5th gen the adjustment mechanism is very hard to access. Unfortunately they should have fixed it when they swapped steering racks.

The real issue is somewhat unknown. It's a complex system and it obviously has a resonating frequency issue at that speed. Something as simple as a different density of rubber bushings on the control arms or even a different alignment setting often resolves it. I don't think anyone really knows exactly what the cause is or what a true solution really is. I suspect that all suspensions exhibit this to some degree, but most would not exhibit the issue until speeds higher than normal use
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:13 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
FWIW - they will not add KDSS. KDSS models have a different frame. I don't know what the differences are - I'd guess they are very minor, but the frame part number is different and likely has some different mounting bolt locations or something along those lines. Also it would be cheaper to simply replace it with a KDSS model than install KDSS on an existing one.

I have KDSS and have had some steering vibrations with unbalanced tires like this issue. I actually currently have a bit of vibration right in that speed range. However, generally I have not had a problem with it and I assume it's due to my tires wearing out and being in need of a re-balance.

The fix that is used on the Lexus GX models per a Lexus TSB is to switch the spring in the steering rack to reduce feedback. This is something that I had an issue with in a 3rd gen 4Runner that has a very similar design and the same steering shimmy issue at times. On those you could just get underneath and actually adjust the spring preload in the steering rack yourself. It was pretty easy to do. On the 5th gen the adjustment mechanism is very hard to access. Unfortunately they should have fixed it when they swapped steering racks.

The real issue is somewhat unknown. It's a complex system and it obviously has a resonating frequency issue at that speed. Something as simple as a different density of rubber bushings on the control arms or even a different alignment setting often resolves it. I don't think anyone really knows exactly what the cause is or what a true solution really is. I suspect that all suspensions exhibit this to some degree, but most would not exhibit the issue until speeds higher than normal use
I figured as much with the KDSS not being able to be added.

The Lexus spring issue cannot be fixed on the 5th gens. That spring is completely sealed in the power steering rack, therefore they changed my entire power steering rack.... no fix

They've tried NUMEROUS alignment settings, that's why I'm wondering if a more endurance SPC UCA would help or fix the issue, but do I have to lift my car in order to use those UCAs?

Plus, I'm not paying $700 plus installation out of my own pocket, especially if there's no guarantee for a fix. Ya know?
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:23 PM #9
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2015 Trail Premium with KDSS, 2" lift, 275 KO2s, 50,000 miles and no vibration.

This issue seems like such a bummer for so many people, it is really a shame that Toyota can't or won't get to the bottom of it.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:47 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pumacat24 View Post
I figured as much with the KDSS not being able to be added.

The Lexus spring issue cannot be fixed on the 5th gens. That spring is completely sealed in the power steering rack, therefore they changed my entire power steering rack.... no fix

They've tried NUMEROUS alignment settings, that's why I'm wondering if a more endurance SPC UCA would help or fix the issue, but do I have to lift my car in order to use those UCAs?

Plus, I'm not paying $700 plus installation out of my own pocket, especially if there's no guarantee for a fix. Ya know?

The spring is not completely sealed in the steering rack. I don't know whether Toyota dealers can buy springs or whether the Lexus spring is the same for certain, but you definitely can access the spring in the rack. The arrow in the picture is to the cap where it is located. It may be nothing more than a bandaid to put a heavier spring in there, but that is what Lexus did. The steering racks are the same. The same part number is shared with lexus depending on model year. There are about half a dozen variations in part number that are superseded by the current version. They should all be interchangeable.

Also, if you didn't know - all GX460s have KDSS and still had the same issue, so it also does happen with KDSS.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:53 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
The spring is not completely sealed in the steering rack. I don't know whether Toyota dealers can buy springs or whether the Lexus spring is the same for certain, but you definitely can access the spring in the rack. The arrow in the picture is to the cap where it is located. It may be nothing more than a bandaid to put a heavier spring in there, but that is what Lexus did. The steering racks are the same. The same part number is shared with lexus depending on model year. There are about half a dozen variations in part number that are superseded by the current version. They should all be interchangeable.

Also, if you didn't know - all GX460s have KDSS and still had the same issue, so it also does happen with KDSS.
Thanks for that info, I will be printing this out to take to the Toyota NA Tech along with the the PDF on how Lexus replaced it.

I didn't know that the GXs had KDSS, that' why I'm looking to see who has a KDSS 4Runner with this issue to report to Toyota.

Thanks again!
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:58 PM #12
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Quote:
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Thanks for that info, I will be printing this out to take to the Toyota NA Tech along with the the PDF on how Lexus replaced it.

I didn't know that the GXs had KDSS, that' why I'm looking to see who has a KDSS 4Runner with this issue to report to Toyota.

Thanks again!
Good luck with the fix. I know it's frustrating. I hope that they sort it out. The adjustment is actually really easy on the older ones. I think it's probably not too bad on the new ones except that it's so damned hard to access.


I have not had a newer one apart - but I'd bet that the internals look about exactly like the old ones. Here's a writeup on how to fix a 3rd gen version. On my third gen it just needed a tightening, but not new parts. That was at about 200k miles. How to: Replace steering rack guide- Pictures - YotaTech Forums
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:08 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
Good luck with the fix. I know it's frustrating. I hope that they sort it out. The adjustment is actually really easy on the older ones. I think it's probably not too bad on the new ones except that it's so damned hard to access.


I have not had a newer one apart - but I'd bet that the internals look about exactly like the old ones. Here's a writeup on how to fix a 3rd gen version. On my third gen it just needed a tightening, but not new parts. That was at about 200k miles. How to: Replace steering rack guide- Pictures - YotaTech Forums
Thanks for the link, I'll print that out too.

At this point, I'm willing to get them to try anything... what do I have to lose other than my sanity? I lost that with this saga about month ago...
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:55 PM #14
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I have a 2018 with KDSS and get vibration right at 60mph and gets better with more or less speed. I had it with the stock Bridgstone tires and with my current BFG KO2's. I thought it was the tires but have had them road force balanced and they were perfect.
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Old 07-16-2019, 03:59 PM #15
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I have a 2018 with KDSS and get vibration right at 60mph and gets better with more or less speed. I had it with the stock Bridgstone tires and with my current BFG KO2's. I thought it was the tires but have had them road force balanced and they were perfect.
Ah, unfortunate news

I guess yours is not enough to bother you?

That's also a strange thing, I test drove 2 TRD ORP off the lot, no KDSS, and they were vibrating too, one worse the mine and one better. But then there are others that don't have it. So very strange.
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