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Old 08-07-2019, 07:18 PM #16
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Have you crash tested this? What guarantees are there that the air bag system will work as intended?
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:49 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1111 View Post
Have you crash tested this? What guarantees are there that the air bag system will work as intended?
Probably the same exact guarantee C4 Fab, SSO or Warn will give you...none. They don't have the money to repeatedly crash different 4Runners to see how the react with the bumper installed. To my knowledge the ONLY bumper that is crash tested in the ARB bumper.
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Old 08-08-2019, 06:01 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRunner_87 View Post
Probably the same exact guarantee C4 Fab, SSO or Warn will give you...none. They don't have the money to repeatedly crash different 4Runners to see how the react with the bumper installed. To my knowledge the ONLY bumper that is crash tested in the ARB bumper.
Not even ARB crash tests. Although they seem to imply that they crash test, the fact is they don't - and it is obvious if you read their site:

"ARB assesses each vehicle’s frontal crush characteristics and replicates the crush rate in the design of each air bag compatible bumper and mounting system. Using this method ensures that the vehicle’s crush rate and air bag triggering are not altered when a bumper is installed."

In other words, they look at crash tests that someone else did and spent some time deciding on how to design their bumpers - probably far more than other vendors.
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Old 08-08-2019, 06:23 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1111 View Post
Not even ARB crash tests. Although they seem to imply that they crash test, the fact is they don't - and it is obvious if you read their site:

"ARB assesses each vehicle’s frontal crush characteristics and replicates the crush rate in the design of each air bag compatible bumper and mounting system. Using this method ensures that the vehicle’s crush rate and air bag triggering are not altered when a bumper is installed."

In other words, they look at crash tests that someone else did and spent some time deciding on how to design their bumpers - probably far more than other vendors.
Interesting. I guess not even ARB, but they do say that their bumpers will not interfere with airbags. I don't think a low pro bumper like these will change much on how the airbags deploy.
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Old 08-08-2019, 07:15 PM #20
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Is there something like this available for third gen?
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:39 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRunner_87 View Post
Interesting. I guess not even ARB, but they do say that their bumpers will not interfere with airbags. I don't think a low pro bumper like these will change much on how the airbags deploy.
It is a very tricky thing. The problem is that without crash testing, nobody knows if the airbags will work as intended - either in an accident on road or an unintended activation off-road.
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Old 08-08-2019, 09:47 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1111 View Post
It is a very tricky thing. The problem is that without crash testing, nobody knows if the airbags will work as intended - either in an accident on road or an unintended activation off-road.
I agree...there really is no definitive way to determine it without crashing multiple 4Runners with this exact bumper.
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Old 08-09-2019, 11:49 AM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRunner_87 View Post
I agree...there really is no definitive way to determine it without crashing multiple 4Runners with this exact bumper.
Conversely, this also doesn't mean that the airbags won't work as intended but there is no way to know.

Does this mean not to use an aftermarket bumper? Maybe, but it really depends on your requirements.

What I think it should do is dissuade those people that are doing it for purely cosmetic reasons - but that is just me.
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Old 08-09-2019, 08:57 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRunner_87 View Post
Probably the same exact guarantee C4 Fab, SSO or Warn will give you...none. They don't have the money to repeatedly crash different 4Runners to see how the react with the bumper installed. To my knowledge the ONLY bumper that is crash tested in the ARB bumper.
This is correct, it costs tens of thousands to get products tested for DOT approval. What we're looking into doing is virtual impact testing, which doesn't give the product DOT approval, but does give us accurate information on how the bumpers will act in the event of an incident. That testing, along with our experienced engineering department, gives us the ability to create a sturdy product that will work as expected. With all metal bumpers, the sensitivity of airbag deployment is a bit more sensitive, as there's no more foam cushion behind a plastic bumper. But that's not saying small taps will set it off, I've personally pushed open gates and moved stuff around with my bumpers with no incident. In an accident, the airbags will still deploy as the sensors aren't modified or moved in any way.

As you mentioned, just about all brands aside from ARB don't do the crash testing for DOT approval, and market their bumpers as "offroad use only". We're going to go the extra step with virtual testing, to get insight on how the design does, and how to improve it to best protect the car in the case of an incident.


Edit: Some more info on the 4Runner airbag system:

Quote:
• The SRS front airbags will deploy in the event of an impact that exceeds the set threshold level (the level of force corresponding to an approximately 12 - 18 mph [20 - 30 km/h] frontal collision with a fixed wall that does not move or deform).

However, this threshold velocity will be considerably higher if the vehicle strikes an object, such as a parked vehicle and sign pole, which can move or deform on impact, or if the vehicle is involved in an underride collision (e.g. a collision in which the front of the vehicle “underrides”, or goes under, the bed of a truck etc.).

• Depending on the type of collision, it is possible that only the seat belt pretensioners will activate.
The factory bumpers have a foam pad behind the plastic bumper exterior, which prevents impacts of 5mph or slower from transferring the force of impact into the crash bar, which then could shift back and set off the airbag sensors. With an aftermarket bumper, you're pretty much replacing your crash bar with a whole bumper, so all that changes is the loss of the foam pad. So from that deduction, the difference with an aftermarket bumper would change the front airbag sensitivity from 12-18mph with a fixed non-deforming wall to 7-13mph. So if you're offroad, and smash into a rock with your front bumper, but aren't going over a certain speed, I don't think it would set off the airbags. However, I'm no airbag expert, neither am I an engineer to that extent, I just did a bit of research to educate myself.

The airbag system is really complex in these new cars, so it calculates speed and impact and makes it's own decision whether the impact is enough to need airbag deployment. Replacing the crash bar with a bumper, removes that piece of foam, which in a sub-5mph impact, would absorb the impact forces and lessen the chance of an airbag deployment. But other than that, the system still works exactly as it would with a normal bumper.

Last edited by RRW.Michael; 08-09-2019 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 08-09-2019, 10:14 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRW.Michael View Post
This is correct, it costs tens of thousands to get products tested for DOT approval. What we're looking into doing is virtual impact testing, which doesn't give the product DOT approval, but does give us accurate information on how the bumpers will act in the event of an incident. That testing, along with our experienced engineering department, gives us the ability to create a sturdy product that will work as expected. With all metal bumpers, the sensitivity of airbag deployment is a bit more sensitive, as there's no more foam cushion behind a plastic bumper. But that's not saying small taps will set it off, I've personally pushed open gates and moved stuff around with my bumpers with no incident. In an accident, the airbags will still deploy as the sensors aren't modified or moved in any way.

As you mentioned, just about all brands aside from ARB don't do the crash testing for DOT approval, and market their bumpers as "offroad use only". We're going to go the extra step with virtual testing, to get insight on how the design does, and how to improve it to best protect the car in the case of an incident.


Edit: Some more info on the 4Runner airbag system:



The factory bumpers have a foam pad behind the plastic bumper exterior, which prevents impacts of 5mph or slower from transferring the force of impact into the crash bar, which then could shift back and set off the airbag sensors. With an aftermarket bumper, you're pretty much replacing your crash bar with a whole bumper, so all that changes is the loss of the foam pad. So from that deduction, the difference with an aftermarket bumper would change the front airbag sensitivity from 12-18mph with a fixed non-deforming wall to 7-13mph. So if you're offroad, and smash into a rock with your front bumper, but aren't going over a certain speed, I don't think it would set off the airbags. However, I'm no airbag expert, neither am I an engineer to that extent, I just did a bit of research to educate myself.

The airbag system is really complex in these new cars, so it calculates speed and impact and makes it's own decision whether the impact is enough to need airbag deployment. Replacing the crash bar with a bumper, removes that piece of foam, which in a sub-5mph impact, would absorb the impact forces and lessen the chance of an airbag deployment. But other than that, the system still works exactly as it would with a normal bumper.
A nice honest discussion that would serve other manufacturers and vendors well.

I'm not the airbag engineer either, but I do know several and I understand that modern systems are far different from "activate above xx mph if the sensor is triggered. In short, the control unit makes literally millions of calculations to answer one question "If I deploy, will I reduce injuries?"

That's why many people say "I was in an accident and the airbag didn't deploy" and my question (which I learned from the airbag engineers) is "were there any injuries?" to which the answer has always been either "none" or "a bruise from a seatbelt".

With the first generation of airbags it was simple - you could swap bumpers to your heart's delight without issues, but today replacing the bumper cover (what we generally call the bumper) and the foam (whose main function is to comply with the mph bumper ratings) and the absorber. Impact angle and severity are some of the things that are taken into consideration and swapping that for a hunk of metal may well change the way the system works.

As an aside, DOT doesn't "approve" anything - it is a manufacturer's responsibility to certify that the replacement parts meet all of the regulations. In this case, the main regulations are here and here
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Old 08-10-2019, 02:38 AM #26
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Is there going to be an option for no lightbar cutout?
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Old 08-12-2019, 05:06 PM #27
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Is there going to be an option for no lightbar cutout?
The lighbar cover will come with a honeycomb cover, as seen in the pictures. That'll cover the hole if you're not running the light bar.
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