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Old 08-11-2019, 12:06 AM #1
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KDSS - Is there an Aftermarket Repair Option

Hi, I did a little research on this as...you guessed it.... That knocking sound in the front end. Shifts side to side over bumps. 5.5 years old, under 55,000 miles. 5th Gen 2014 Trail 4x4.

Toyota: Cylinder needs to be replaced... diagnostics $300.00... Repair bill just under $3000. I read that even Toyota dealers having to special order a tool to work on it, so... yeah.. feeling a little kicked in the face.

There has not been much chatter on the subject on t4r lately, so I'll ask it...

Does anyone know of an aftermarket replacement ... upgrade ? to the massive repair bill proposed by Toyota ? For the sakes of the thread, I am not looking at ripping it out and putting a sway bar in.

Thanks in advance
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:16 AM #2
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There was someone recently with a 5th gen kdss that under warranty Toyota changed quite a bit of parts when the rubber bushing was bad. Dealer refused to take the easy way.
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Old 08-11-2019, 09:05 AM #3
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well, all the GX's have KDSS, so the special service tool (SST) is present at a lexus shop. Whether or not they would help you out is a different story.

The KDSS does move around all over the place. Check out this great video from a forum member (check out around 2:56):

YouTube

What about the front piston is knocking? Is it the connection to the frame at the top, or the connection to the swaybar? Have you replaced the swaybar bushings and the KDSS bushings? They are all very cheap and easy to replace on the ground, in the driveway

Is the cylinder (front or rear?) leaking?
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:12 PM #4
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Get rid of it to make it a trd pro.


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Old 08-11-2019, 02:31 PM #5
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Replace your bushings first, they're cheap. $15 each and the job is relatively easy DIY, or if you trust them, have those folks do it for you.

I find it hard to believe the piston went out, not that it couldn't happen, it seems much more likely that one of the solenoids in the valve body would fail before a piston.

Pistons are dead simple tech, if anything you should be able to pull it and rebuild it yourself, or have a motorcycle/shock shop do it for under $100.

Last someone looked into it the KDSS SST is roughly ~$550. It is basically used to depressurize, pressurize and bleed the system.
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Old 08-11-2019, 05:43 PM #6
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That failure seems a bit early. I'd contact Toyota customer service (preferably by mail if you have the time), explain that although you realize that you are out of warranty, you believe that this is a manufacturers defect as the failure occurred so early and you ask for a goodwill repair.

Perhaps the dealer will support you.

There are three outcomes:

Toyota pays for the repair
Toyota pays for part of the repair
Toyota tells you to take a flying leap

All it costs is the postage for a registered letter. Worst case is that you get pissed off because they turn you down.

I've done this a couple of times with mixed results. One time the manufacturer paid the whole thing, the other time they split the bill and paid the parts - in that case it was over half.

It does help if the dealer believes that it is an unusual failure.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:46 PM #7
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I put together a list for a suggested kit to bleed and pressurize the system from off the shelf parts for about $300 or so IIRC. I'll see if I can find it. There's thousands of GX and Kdss 4runners in salvage yards so a cylinder shouldn't be terribly hard to find. I don't know what fluid it uses.

Edit: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00460UDK2...2&linkCode=asn

This plus a correct fitting (not sure what style is used) plus the proper fluid would get you there. Iirc bleed like brakes then pressurize to 500psi. Double check the FSM on pressure. My guess is that it uses something like 5 weight shock oil, but again I'd see what the Toyota manual requires. Part number is 08886-01805. It's only $35 ish for 2.5l of the OEM fluid so I'd use that.

Ultimately I think $250 plus the replacement parts would get you back in action.

Last edited by Jetboy; 08-11-2019 at 08:08 PM.
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Old 08-12-2019, 11:03 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
I put together a list for a suggested kit to bleed and pressurize the system from off the shelf parts for about $300 or so IIRC. I'll see if I can find it. There's thousands of GX and Kdss 4runners in salvage yards so a cylinder shouldn't be terribly hard to find. I don't know what fluid it uses.

Edit: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00460UDK2...2&linkCode=asn

This plus a correct fitting (not sure what style is used) plus the proper fluid would get you there. Iirc bleed like brakes then pressurize to 500psi. Double check the FSM on pressure. My guess is that it uses something like 5 weight shock oil, but again I'd see what the Toyota manual requires. Part number is 08886-01805. It's only $35 ish for 2.5l of the OEM fluid so I'd use that.

Ultimately I think $250 plus the replacement parts would get you back in action.


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Old 08-18-2019, 02:35 PM #9
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Sorry for the time delay in replying to everyone's contribution, its very much appreciated and good for the community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nb rob View Post
well, all the GX's have KDSS, so the special service tool (SST) is present at a lexus shop. Whether or not they would help you out is a different story.

What about the front piston is knocking? Is it the connection to the frame at the top, or the connection to the swaybar? Have you replaced the swaybar bushings and the KDSS bushings? They are all very cheap and easy to replace on the ground, in the driveway

Is the cylinder (front or rear?) leaking?
My local Toyota has the SST already and has done the repair too.

I've had no leaking of any kind (front/rear). No bushings replaced. Its really hard to pinpoint the origin of the knocking. Two capable buddies and I got up on the sliders and rocked the rig side to side to repeat the knocking. We concluded that taking it to Toyota needed to happen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cb1111 View Post
That failure seems a bit early. I'd contact Toyota customer service (preferably by mail if you have the time), explain that although you realize that you are out of warranty, you believe that this is a manufacturers defect as the failure occurred so early and you ask for a goodwill repair.

Perhaps the dealer will support you.

There are three outcomes:

Toyota pays for the repair
Toyota pays for part of the repair
Toyota tells you to take a flying leap

All it costs is the postage for a registered letter. Worst case is that you get pissed off because they turn you down.

I've done this a couple of times with mixed results. One time the manufacturer paid the whole thing, the other time they split the bill and paid the parts - in that case it was over half.

It does help if the dealer believes that it is an unusual failure.
The failure does seem early to me as well, miles-wise and considering that I do not beat the s**t out of it. I wheel, but i'm not bajaing the thing. Regardless, it's too soon.

My Toyota adviser contacted Toyota Corporate on my behalf. I [try to] speak to the same person over there when I bring th Runner in and he's went to bat for me on several occasions. After about a week he heard from them and they took $1000.00 off of the repair. Not sure that more would come of it if I did contact them direct. Do you think I should pursue it further ? or take it and run ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
I put together a list for a suggested kit to bleed and pressurize the system from off the shelf parts for about $300 or so IIRC. I'll see if I can find it. There's thousands of GX and Kdss 4runners in salvage yards so a cylinder shouldn't be terribly hard to find. I don't know what fluid it uses.

.....This plus a correct fitting (not sure what style is used) plus the proper fluid would get you there. Iirc bleed like brakes then pressurize to 500psi. Double check the FSM on pressure. My guess is that it uses something like 5 weight shock oil, but again I'd see what the Toyota manual requires. Part number is 08886-01805. It's only $35 ish for 2.5l of the OEM fluid so I'd use that.

Ultimately I think $250 plus the replacement parts would get you back in action.
Thank you for this. The capable person would find this info extremely helpful. Unfortunately the time-cost, for me, does not work out. I'd spend way more of my time getting it all figured out than would make since. Someone will do this and its great information for the community. I hope someone does and posts up.

The dealer said in their repair write-up that they disconnected something, did a test drive and the knocking went away.... I'll post that specific wording tomorrow as I left the paperwork at my office.....

Thanks again everyone....
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Old 08-18-2019, 03:49 PM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NC[4]Runner View Post
Sorry for the time delay in replying to everyone's contribution, its very much appreciated and good for the community.



My local Toyota has the SST already and has done the repair too.

I've had no leaking of any kind (front/rear). No bushings replaced. Its really hard to pinpoint the origin of the knocking. Two capable buddies and I got up on the sliders and rocked the rig side to side to repeat the knocking. We concluded that taking it to Toyota needed to happen.




The failure does seem early to me as well, miles-wise and considering that I do not beat the s**t out of it. I wheel, but i'm not bajaing the thing. Regardless, it's too soon.

My Toyota adviser contacted Toyota Corporate on my behalf. I [try to] speak to the same person over there when I bring th Runner in and he's went to bat for me on several occasions. After about a week he heard from them and they took $1000.00 off of the repair. Not sure that more would come of it if I did contact them direct. Do you think I should pursue it further ? or take it and run ?




Thank you for this. The capable person would find this info extremely helpful. Unfortunately the time-cost, for me, does not work out. I'd spend way more of my time getting it all figured out than would make since. Someone will do this and its great information for the community. I hope someone does and posts up.

The dealer said in their repair write-up that they disconnected something, did a test drive and the knocking went away.... I'll post that specific wording tomorrow as I left the paperwork at my office.....

Thanks again everyone....
Hard to say. If you have the car (i.e. not at the dealer), then take it to an indy for an estimate.

You can also go to the dealer (who may, or may not have actually spoken with Toyota) if they can sweeten the deal. I've found a way that has worked for me:

"That is a very generous offer from Toyota and I really appreciate your help with this. However, this is still a big amount for me - is there anything your dealership can do as well?"

This does several things. It thanks them for helping. It identifies the goodwill as coming from Toyota and it asks them to contribute something as well.
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Old 08-19-2019, 01:59 PM #11
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Originally Posted by NC[4]Runner View Post


Thank you for this. The capable person would find this info extremely helpful. Unfortunately the time-cost, for me, does not work out. I'd spend way more of my time getting it all figured out than would make since. Someone will do this and its great information for the community. I hope someone does and posts up.

The dealer said in their repair write-up that they disconnected something, did a test drive and the knocking went away.... I'll post that specific wording tomorrow as I left the paperwork at my office.....

Thanks again everyone....
I'm actually in the same boat. I have no free time right now and would just take to the dealer to repair myself. I bought the extended warranty so I'm still good for another 3 or 4 years. I mostly came up with that initially because of the ridiculousness of the $2k special service tool that I looked at and saw that it was just a fancy version of a $100 pump.

I think Toyota made the KDSS system overly proprietary and that sucks. They really should have just used nitrogen charged condensers that any suspension shop could bleed with brake bleeding tools and recharge.
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Old 08-19-2019, 02:14 PM #12
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what's the mechanism that the failed cylinder is causing the knock, is it bottoming out or something?

in other words did they give you a narrative for why the failed cylinder was causing the noise, or just decide that?
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:00 PM #13
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The KDSS system is brutal. $1000 option on a new 4Runner but $3000 to replace if busted.
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Old 08-19-2019, 04:13 PM #14
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I would be pretty cheesed if I had to pay for replacement out of pocket with costs like that.

Not that I am a proponent of extended warranties, but I have started to consider them as cars keep getting more and more complicated. Pretty wild what you see in newer cars these days in terms of tech which require specialized knowledge or tools.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:34 PM #15
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Quote:
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.......
You can also go to the dealer (who may, or may not have actually spoken with Toyota) if they can sweeten the deal. I've found a way that has worked for me:

"That is a very generous offer from Toyota and I really appreciate your help with this. However, this is still a big amount for me - is there anything your dealership can do as well?"

This does several things. It thanks them for helping. It identifies the goodwill as coming from Toyota and it asks them to contribute something as well.
This is a great idea, thank you.. I'm going to give it a shot....

This is what is on my diagnostic bill:

"Cause: VERIFIED CUSTOMER CONCERN REMOVED SKID PLATE TO FURTHER INSPECT REMOVED
KDS SYSTEM FROM THE LOWER CONTROL ARMS VERIFIED NOISE WENT AWAY. CHECKED
COMPONENTS AND CONFIRMED NOISE KDS CYLINDER SUB ASSEMBLY.
Correction: RECOMMEND REPLACE KDS SUB ASSEMBLY AND BLEED SYSTEM WILL REPLACE
WORN BUSHINGS WITH REPAIR AS WELL $2924.70 PARTS ARE SPECIAL ORDER"

This is plus the $300.00 diagnostic I already paid.

Thank you everyone else for your input as well.
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