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Old 01-26-2020, 10:43 AM #16
Wolfspyder Wolfspyder is offline
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The only thing the Pro has over the ORP, that can't be modded, is the auto dual climate controls.
It also comes standard with a better sound system (has a subwoofer), upgraded suspension, skid plate, different wheels/tires, different roof rack, different grill, catback exhaust, and can get the unique color.

The ORP can get KDSS and comes with turn signal indicators on the mirrors, which the PRO does not have as options.

That said, I am in the same boat as to trying to decide what to get... I really like the Pro green, it's looks(minus the different roof rack), and the fact it has a better sound system and the auto climate controls.
But, I think I will prefer the ORP with KDSS since I will mostly be driving on roads with the occasional trip to trails on weekends.

I think the next time one of my local dealers gets a Pro in I need to go for a test drive.


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Old 01-26-2020, 12:17 PM #17
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Orp

I was in your same boat. I personally went with the TRD Off Road Premium.

Why?

I planned to upgrade suspension OME BP51 (PRO could not handle the weight I planned to add so I needed to upgrade regardless, Bumpers, Winch, Roof Rack)

I Planned to change all the bumpers and add a winch
I planned to get a better FULL roof rack which allowed me to put a roof top tent and other MISC items on top

The PRO basically is a vehicle that they sold to the people who DON"T want to do any modifications and use it as is. It is very capable but in the end if you want to add the modifications I have done and the reasoning for them are the same, go with the ORP.








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Old 01-26-2020, 12:55 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAST4R View Post
You will hear all sorts of opinions, of course.

The reality is that there is only ONE difference between a Pro and Off-Road and that difference is the suspension. Therefore, the ONLY functional reason to buy a Pro is the suspension. If you are going to throw it away, you are throwing away 1000s of dollars. Not everyone cares for the bottom line though so there is that.

So, how good is the Fox suspension? I have not driven it so I cannot tell. I can tell you that the stock suspension can handle anything the Fox suspension will BUT you will not enjoy it nearly as much. The stock Pro will net you zero trails over a stock OffRoad but you will have 1/easier time both in desert and in rock and 2/ a much more comfortable ride both in desert and over rocks.

The same effect can be accomplished by upgrading an OffRoad for a fraction of the money the Fox suspension costs.

Which brings the question just how good the stock Fox suspension is. While I have no answer, I can tell you that the stock Raptor Fox suspension is regarded as a gimmicky suspension in that while it performs great over a short time period, it does not allow for sustained high speeds.

And so, it comes to what you want:

Tier 1:
--Go very fast through the desert for extended periods of time (King, aftermarket Fox, Icon, Radflo all 2.5 coilovers and rears).
--Maximum possible performance (see above).
--You can bet your lunch that most people here that have Kings and 9/10 of Instagramers have never needed more than Tier 2.
--All these suspensions will require rebuilding and that's either work that you have to do or a cost you will need to incur. May not be too bad in LA due to abundant support locally.

Tier 2, which is me among many others here:
--Go at good speed through the desert for a long time and crawl over biggish but not huge rocks.
--Have good road manners
--Have a much lower cost setup than Tier 1.
This is where your stock Pro setups come in. Functionally, you will get the same from a cheaper setup like mine (1,000$ for Bilstein 6112 and Icon rear) or get other mid-range setups, some of which are adjustable like the new Dobinsons MRA (2,000+). Is the Fox OEM better than Dobinsons MRA in real life use? It is OEM so there is that. You can count on dealer support.

Tier 3, which is most people and is perfectly fine functionally:
--Quality aftermarket suspension such as Eibach or Dobinsons
--Allows the same 4x4 trail experience as any of the above but you will be more limited in the desert in terms of speed and maybe comfort (though I think Eibach may be very good at comfort due to the valving). These suspensions are capable yet very cost effective at the same time. Not having to rebuild them cuts dramatically on effort and cost. You will save money by rebuilding suspensions in the upper tiers only if you do all the work yourself and only if you keep the vehicle for a very long time. Otherwise, it is hard to argue with 100-140$ per new shock.

Tier 3 old school:
--Same as Tier 3 but using older design suspension, such as 5100s and OME nitro shocks. These are functionally equivalent to Tier 3 but will ride rougher per everything I have read. That said, I don't thing 5100s are rough but I have only driven those on X-Terras, not 4Runners.

Tier 4, Spacers.
Don't. It is less capable than stock. You will get the illusion of capability via an artificial ride height but if you are serious about offroading spacers are a bad idea. I have run spacers with no issues on a Subaru for years so I am not inherently biased against spacers or ignorant about them. On a 4R, they are a bad idea unless they are small and used to compensate for lean or add a tiny bit of lift.

Finally, these are the things you actually need to be comfortably doing lots of offroading:

--A more capable suspension than stock that preserves your wheel travel or only takes away very little
--This means 2" of lift or less + 6112 front or equivalent and 5160/Icon/Fox/Radflo rear. You don't need "extended travel" you just need the little extra a good front suspension affords WITHOUT aftermarket UCAs (yes, it is so but you will hear many saying it is impossible).

If you want to drive the Rubicon all the time or Golden Spike and up then, by all means, go all the way to 3" lift and add aftermarket bumpers. But if you stay Hells Revenge/Fins and Things/Elephant Hill and lower, you do not technically need any lift at all, you would just want a better suspension for better experience and better skid plates for better protection.

So that's the strategic decision to make:

Good speeds+difficult trails=one story, easy to get there comfortably, and cheap, too. Arguably the 4R is the best all-around platform for this.

High speeds (sustained)+very difficult trails=another story and you don't have the best platform for either to start with. You can do all sorts of things with enough desire, but will never turn the 4R into a Rubicon or a Pre-Runner so bear that in mind before starting. There is a fantastic thread by LawnDart on the latter subject: you can see what it takes to compete with Raptors.
So much info! Thank you so much. I think tier 2 is where I'm gonna sit.. I feel like I'm not going to be pushing it super hard.. maybe once in a while. And i dont need to go crazy fast while doing so. I'll spend some time researching the suspensions in that tier list.. but you still dont think id need any sort of lift with those? What size tire is typical with something like that?

Thank you again!
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Old 01-26-2020, 12:57 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maxp0wer View Post
If you are going to upgrade the suspension, don't get the pro since you are paying thousands for the Fox setup you will will be taking off. Go Off Road Premium non KDSS. You can upgrade to the TRD wheels and skid plate for pretty cheap if you want them.
I keep seeing people say non-kdss.. is it just a bad system?
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Old 01-26-2020, 12:58 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royfud View Post
I just got a 2020 OR. I agree you don’t need the Pro unless you have money to blow. I’m installing the Eibach kit, wheels and tires this coming weekend. I’m in the IE too. Looking to check out some trails in a couple weeks.


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Amazing! I'll definitely keep you updated on my progress.. I have to leave for most of Feb for work unfortunately, but once I'm back I'm definitely in for putting it through its paces and seeing what it can really do
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:00 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobsTrail View Post
IMO -- Get the OR, add skid plates and sliders then run it on trails to see what you really need. Make mods after you see how well the T4 does to help decide what is needed for your type of running.

I really like my old 2013 Trail and have taken it on some very rough trails and deep sand dunes. But from what you say you want, maybe a JL with 35s, lockers and winch may be better for your intended use.

I never would have recommended a Jeep until I make a snow run with a group of built JKs. They were impressive.
I actually went to look at the JK's, but they're too small inside. I'm 6'4 270lbs.. i fit really well in the 4R surprisingly
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:01 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturnine90 View Post
I went with a Pro for a few reasons. I wanted Army green, dual climate control, the pro grille/skid. The minor appearance things like the trd wheels and black lugs are nice. The fox suspension rides really nice. Its a great vehicle from factory but it comes at an admittedly almost ridiculous price point. You can definitely get an off road premium and make it more off road worthy than a stock pro for much less $. I had a bone stock sr5 a few years back that i felt was a little lackluster. I also had a jeep jk that i spent a bunch of money modifying the suspension on. Personally the pro just felt right but only because I don’t plan on changing the suspension in the near future. If you really plan on moding the suspension id say get the OR.


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Just from what you said, I would consider the crazy additional cost just to get dual climate control for me and my lady. ha
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:03 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfspyder View Post
The only thing the Pro has over the ORP, that can't be modded, is the auto dual climate controls.
It also comes standard with a better sound system (has a subwoofer), upgraded suspension, skid plate, different wheels/tires, different roof rack, different grill, catback exhaust, and can get the unique color.

The ORP can get KDSS and comes with turn signal indicators on the mirrors, which the PRO does not have as options.

That said, I am in the same boat as to trying to decide what to get... I really like the Pro green, it's looks(minus the different roof rack), and the fact it has a better sound system and the auto climate controls.
But, I think I will prefer the ORP with KDSS since I will mostly be driving on roads with the occasional trip to trails on weekends.

I think the next time one of my local dealers gets a Pro in I need to go for a test drive.


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To me it seems worth it just for the dual climate control because me and my lady are on both extreme ends of the temp guage always. that would be something we'd argue about all the time
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:05 PM #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gazant4r View Post
I was in your same boat. I personally went with the TRD Off Road Premium.

Why?

I planned to upgrade suspension OME BP51 (PRO could not handle the weight I planned to add so I needed to upgrade regardless, Bumpers, Winch, Roof Rack)

I Planned to change all the bumpers and add a winch
I planned to get a better FULL roof rack which allowed me to put a roof top tent and other MISC items on top

The PRO basically is a vehicle that they sold to the people who DON"T want to do any modifications and use it as is. It is very capable but in the end if you want to add the modifications I have done and the reasoning for them are the same, go with the ORP.








You pretty much have every upgrade id want to do to mine.. Im jealous! But like you said, either way i have to upgrade the suspension because of weight
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:11 PM #25
gazant4r gazant4r is offline
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you'll love this one to then.

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Old 01-26-2020, 01:48 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saturnine90 View Post
I went with a Pro for a few reasons. I wanted Army green, dual climate control, the pro grille/skid. The minor appearance things like the trd wheels and black lugs are nice. The fox suspension rides really nice. Its a great vehicle from factory but it comes at an admittedly almost ridiculous price point. You can definitely get an off road premium and make it more off road worthy than a stock pro for much less $. I had a bone stock sr5 a few years back that i felt was a little lackluster. I also had a jeep jk that i spent a bunch of money modifying the suspension on. Personally the pro just felt right but only because I don’t plan on changing the suspension in the near future. If you really plan on moding the suspension id say get the OR.


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+1
I bought the AG for my wife, its the only color she wanted. I wanted to get a ORP but AG was what she wanted so she got the Pro.
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Old 01-26-2020, 01:52 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radog View Post
So much info! Thank you so much. I think tier 2 is where I'm gonna sit.. I feel like I'm not going to be pushing it super hard.. maybe once in a while. And i dont need to go crazy fast while doing so. I'll spend some time researching the suspensions in that tier list.. but you still dont think id need any sort of lift with those? What size tire is typical with something like that?

Thank you again!
Anywhere from 1" to 2" of lift plus armor is enough. Most people would just go for 2". I am 1.25/1.

I spent years thinking that ground clearance is king since I had a Subaru and spacers where the only option. But most hits are not due to lack of clearance, they are due to soft suspensions that squat at the sight of a pebble. So stiffening the suspension helps both eliminating bottoming out events which can happen at 15 mph on a stock setup and also minimizing hitting rocks while crawling.

The difference between 1.25" and 2" lift is that the latter loses you an extra 0.75" of down travel which is a big deal and even more so with a stiffer suspension.

SO...you have two options to fine tune this:

2" front lift with 600lb springs should provide Cadillac ride on road plus help avoid rocks when crawling but won't help against bottoming out at speed.

1.25-1.5 front lift with 650lb springs will accomplish the same thing in rocks but also prevent bottoming out at speed. The price to pay is a good/very good but not outstanding ride quality on road.

Last but not least, think of the suspension in relation to the tires you want to use. If you do lots and lots of desert and little in rain, KO2s are a good option but LT tires on top of a stiff suspension may make the ride on road a bit too sporty especially for rear seat passengers.

At the end, you will not know for sure what you want until you have tried a few options. If you have previous experience on a similar vehicle you may get it just right in one try but if coming like me from a very different vehicle, it is bound to be a process. But it is a fun one! Just don't spend 3,000 on a suspension unless you are sure you know why

Maybe see if you can drive some forum members' vehicles to get a feel for the 2-3 suspensions that interest you the most. In that case, make sure to account for the tires and the psi as well.

Good luck, should be fun!
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Old 01-26-2020, 02:22 PM #28
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If you plan on doing a lot of off roading and want it higher than the Pro and looking to do a lot of mods then the off-road is the way to go. I did all the mods to my 15 Tacoma and after that sold all my mods and decided I wanted the 4runner Pro and leave it the way it is. Traded my 17 Pro and now have 2020 AG pro. But this is just me. Good luck on your decision.
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Old 01-26-2020, 02:40 PM #29
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KDSS has been around for a long time on the GX's it is a premium option for them.

Let's break down what KDSS is, it is a hydraulic stabilizer.

PRO's
Beafy stabilizer bar
More stability
KDSS activates when it senses that a wheel has dropped
prevents heavy body roll and actually reduces overall body roll in maneuvering

CON's
??? Something that can break in the future i guess?

I personally haven been in a gx with and without KDSS. I prefer KDSS.

From my knowledge KDSS has been around for 16 years
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Old 01-26-2020, 02:42 PM #30
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If you plan on doing a lot of off roading and want it higher than the Pro and looking to do a lot of mods then the off-road is the way to go. I did all the mods to my 15 Tacoma and after that sold all my mods and decided I wanted the 4runner Pro and leave it the way it is. Traded my 17 Pro and now have 2020 AG pro. But this is just me. Good luck on your decision.

I understand people like the new AG but if you already have one, why not just wrap it? Better paint protection and cheaper than getting a new one, Unless you leased then that makes sense. I personally would only BUY Toyota's.
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