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Old 11-22-2020, 09:46 PM #31
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I agree 5000 miles and they are perfect adjustable and comfortable
Canít wait for weather changes and some challenges
Mike
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:27 AM #32
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Quote:
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I agree 5000 miles and they are perfect adjustable and comfortable
Canít wait for weather changes and some challenges
Mike
when I adjusted mine it was a lot tougher than I was thinking. I spray waxed them as suggested from Toytec but they were pretty stuck from all the gunk/dirt. I used a spray bottle with soap/water and really covered them even that didn't help much. Is there any spray lubricant I should use? I wasn't sure about how that would affect them so I didn't and just kept cranking on it until it finally moved.
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Old 11-23-2020, 11:56 AM #33
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I used dry lube and coat it after every oil change so far Iím good
Mike
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Old 06-13-2021, 09:42 AM #34
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Great info in this entire thread!

Like the OP I have roughly the same driving style. 40% on road/ traveling with a full load, 40% daily driver(empty), 20% off-road; mostly fire roads, the annual trip to OBX that requires 10miles driving on the beach one way, and a trip here and there to the DBBB; that in itself is darn near rock crawling lol.. but I try to avoid overly technical stuff..

I am comparing the BP51 (and their high price) to a complete Radflo 2.5" long travel 650lb front spring, including rear links and brake lines. Pretty close in price..

I know it isn't a apples to apples comparison... but if you look at performance per dollar and also customization (can you change out the springs on the BP51?) if I add bumpers down the road. Radflo has got it in the bag! It would be WAY overkill for what I need... But It would do everything I want without breaking a sweat!

The BP51 on the other hand seem very "set and forget" I would say very OEM+ like the Pro Bilsteins and Fox options. Also their 3 year warranty is amazing!
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Old 06-13-2021, 12:55 PM #35
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Like a lot of you folks here, I've installed my own suspensions. The last was a Dodge 3500 one ton truck; everything scaled to heavy and extra-beefy - no rust and plenty of room to work, plus a natural amount of high ground clearance prior to jacking up. Pretty easy in my garage on a creeper. Getting old, grumpy and lazy, so I'm thinking of having a shop do my KDSS GX 470 mods. Anybody ever use 4 Wheel Parts for suspension purchase and installation? Our store is #45 and it looks like they are all over the country, but somewhat weighted to the West. I've shopped there for parts, usually finding them to be competitive compared to other local stores, but easy to beat online.
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Old 06-13-2021, 03:10 PM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SendInTheCavalry View Post
I am comparing the BP51 (and their high price) to a complete Radflo 2.5" long travel 650lb front spring, including rear links and brake lines. Pretty close in price..

I know it isn't a apples to apples comparison... but if you look at performance per dollar and also customization (can you change out the springs on the BP51?) if I add bumpers down the road. Radflo has got it in the bag! It would be WAY overkill for what I need... But It would do everything I want without breaking a sweat!

The BP51 on the other hand seem very "set and forget" I would say very OEM+ like the Pro Bilsteins and Fox options. Also their 3 year warranty is amazing!
Those comments seems to nail it. to me, Radflo looks like more fun if you want to be involved and BP 51 looks like the better option if you would rather 'set and forget'.

The Radflos should be much easier to DIY service or get help but the OME may have more consistent production quality.
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Old 06-13-2021, 03:47 PM #37
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Those comments seems to nail it. to me, Radflo looks like more fun if you want to be involved and BP 51 looks like the better option if you would rather 'set and forget'.

The Radflos should be much easier to DIY service or get help but the OME may have more consistent production quality.

That doesn't help me decide! lol
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Old 06-13-2021, 04:51 PM #38
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That doesn't help me decide! lol
Haha, I know, right?

It should not be hard though.

The BP 51 is specifically engineered for OZ-style, heavy trips and for higher lifts.

The Radflo can be set to deliver more performance in a variety of scenarios.

If you are going to be heavy with full steel bumpers and lots of luggage will you ever really use the Radflo's advantages?

So, BP-51 for overlanding and Radflo for more performance oriented offroading be it going at a decent speed through rough terrain or going over bigger rocks.

Radflo may be able to make you bypasses as well all for the price of the standard BP 51.

So that's the longer version of "being more involved with varied offroading" vs "set for overlanding and forget".

And then there is the issue of lift. I have seen 0 evidence for bigger lifts being useful in fact I am sure they make things worse: a bigger lift skews wheel travel and reduces vehicle stability in off camber situations. The Radflo can work with a variety of lifts but the BP 51 forces I believe a minimum of 2.5" which ruled it out for me right there.

A lot of people, including myself at an earlier time, obsess about clearance but in fact that is typically about suspension being too soft thereby reducing clearance when you need it and driver inexperience. The minimum static ground clearance that will clear the rocks of interest is the best. 1"-2" lift with good skids and suspension is enough for all normal difficult trails. Beyond that, it is play stuff and for that the 5 gen is a bad choice anyway.
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Old 06-13-2021, 09:46 PM #39
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I still think for the quality of the BP51 itís the best choice for going anywhere reliably!!! The adjustabliity and construction make it a great choice

Mike
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Old 06-13-2021, 10:14 PM #40
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Quote:
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Haha, I know, right?

It should not be hard though.

The BP 51 is specifically engineered for OZ-style, heavy trips and for higher lifts.

The Radflo can be set to deliver more performance in a variety of scenarios.

If you are going to be heavy with full steel bumpers and lots of luggage will you ever really use the Radflo's advantages?

So, BP-51 for overlanding and Radflo for more performance oriented offroading be it going at a decent speed through rough terrain or going over bigger rocks.

Radflo may be able to make you bypasses as well all for the price of the standard BP 51.

So that's the longer version of "being more involved with varied offroading" vs "set for overlanding and forget".

And then there is the issue of lift. I have seen 0 evidence for bigger lifts being useful in fact I am sure they make things worse: a bigger lift skews wheel travel and reduces vehicle stability in off camber situations. The Radflo can work with a variety of lifts but the BP 51 forces I believe a minimum of 2.5" which ruled it out for me right there.

A lot of people, including myself at an earlier time, obsess about clearance but in fact that is typically about suspension being too soft thereby reducing clearance when you need it and driver inexperience. The minimum static ground clearance that will clear the rocks of interest is the best. 1"-2" lift with good skids and suspension is enough for all normal difficult trails. Beyond that, it is play stuff and for that the 5 gen is a bad choice anyway.
Ive never really thought of it like that, all very good points!

If I have the Pro Bilsteins (+1" over standard 4Runner) Will the BP51 net me +2" more than what I have now?

I am also kind of wondering if I should consider a simple Billy 5100 setup. The beauty of that is, when they crap out they are affordable enough to just replace them..


Its a hard choice.. there is a reason the "overland" market is booming... sadly I admit, I am really turned on by the 3" lift w/remote rezies, and 285s.. just like a jeep on 35s.. "everyone is doing it"

At the same time, I am pretty set on 255/75 tire..
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Old 06-13-2021, 10:59 PM #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SendInTheCavalry View Post
Ive never really thought of it like that, all very good points!

If I have the Pro Bilsteins (+1" over standard 4Runner) Will the BP51 net me +2" more than what I have now?

I am also kind of wondering if I should consider a simple Billy 5100 setup. The beauty of that is, when they crap out they are affordable enough to just replace them..


Its a hard choice.. there is a reason the "overland" market is booming... sadly I admit, I am really turned on by the 3" lift w/remote rezies, and 285s.. just like a jeep on 35s.. "everyone is doing it"

At the same time, I am pretty set on 255/75 tire..
If you are +1" now, you will get to +2.5" or +3" total with the BP 51.

I call +1 the actual normal height for the 4R. I think it is lowered for the US vs the Prado platform. The CVs are reverse angled at the stock height and perfect at just under 1". So anything from 0 to 2" of lift is good. I think this is also why +3" is not a big problem for the CVs. Because I think it is really +2.

The one issue is wheel travel, very debated on this forum. See, most people don't believe that you get +1" from the Bilstein Pro and the 6112 but you surely do, just as Toyota said in ads. No need for aftermarket UCAs to get it. It is there, just underdone with the stock front. But I don't know how non-Bilstein fronts handle that. So to do it right for offroading at +3", you have to spend a lot of time and money, UCA and all. To do it right at +2", you need nothing but new coilovers. So lots of pain for half an inch of clearance!

Now, the 5100 series is very cheap. I guess it should handle pretty well on the road and will do any rock crawling and regular forest roads just fine. But once you start really using it, like driving faster over rough forest roads with embedded rock, it will not do well. It will get harsh and won't last very long, I bet. In the desert, that much less.

Also, be careful with rear shocks. Many are advertised with a big range which makes no sense. They should be advertised for 1.5" of difference, like 0-1.5 or 1.5-3 or 2-3 or 0-1. The Icon 2.0 advertised for 1-3 should really only be 2-3. And so on. It matters a great deal where the piston is at rest.

If the rig's offroad exploits are mild in length, roughness, OR speed (choose 2 but not all 3 with lower-end setups) then the 5100 may be all that is needed. Speed as low as 20 mph can be far too much for small shocks under the right conditions.
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Old 06-14-2021, 06:44 AM #42
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Cost of Ownership on Icon or BP-51

Quote:
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If you are +1" now, you will get to +2.5" or +3" total with the BP 51.

I call +1 the actual normal height for the 4R. I think it is lowered for the US vs the Prado platform. The CVs are reverse angled at the stock height and perfect at just under 1". So anything from 0 to 2" of lift is good. I think this is also why +3" is not a big problem for the CVs. Because I think it is really +2.

The one issue is wheel travel, very debated on this forum. See, most people don't believe that you get +1" from the Bilstein Pro and the 6112 but you surely do, just as Toyota said in ads. No need for aftermarket UCAs to get it. It is there, just underdone with the stock front. But I don't know how non-Bilstein fronts handle that. So to do it right for offroading at +3", you have to spend a lot of time and money, UCA and all. To do it right at +2", you need nothing but new coilovers. So lots of pain for half an inch of clearance!

Now, the 5100 series is very cheap. I guess it should handle pretty well on the road and will do any rock crawling and regular forest roads just fine. But once you start really using it, like driving faster over rough forest roads with embedded rock, it will not do well. It will get harsh and won't last very long, I bet. In the desert, that much less.

Also, be careful with rear shocks. Many are advertised with a big range which makes no sense. They should be advertised for 1.5" of difference, like 0-1.5 or 1.5-3 or 2-3 or 0-1. The Icon 2.0 advertised for 1-3 should really only be 2-3. And so on. It matters a great deal where the piston is at rest.

If the rig's offroad exploits are mild in length, roughness, OR speed (choose 2 but not all 3 with lower-end setups) then the 5100 may be all that is needed. Speed as low as 20 mph can be far too much for small shocks under the right conditions.

Maybe it might be best to stick with my gut and go with the BP51.

They have a lot to offer (with a price tag to match). They seem to hit a sweet spot in the market. They arenít necessarily going to let you bomber a crossed a desert road, but you might be able to once or twice. Maybe more if you really adjust the compression and rebound on point.

And theyíre not necessarily low end like what I consider the 5100s or simple Dob or OME set up.

You get remote res, rebuild ability, backed by a awesome company for 3 years!

I wonder if the BP51 is height adjustable? If I could gain +2Ē overall (+1 over stock Pro) that might be awesome! I know they come pre loaded but nothing really says in black and white if 1)the end user is supposed to adjust preload, and 2) If it will lower the height and soften the ride.

I donít have additional weight of bumpers, Iíve thought about a rear swing out but it will be awhile. I only have a 100lb Gobi and probably 100lb of sliders. And I bet I get close to 200-300lbs in the trunk when traveling.

I was thinking of going with their medium weight spring. Like I mentioned if I could soften the preload slightly 2 or 3 turns?


Thanks for your info! Youíve provide some very good insight. Sounds like you really know your stuff.
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Old 06-14-2021, 11:19 AM #43
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BP51 can answer all on your checklist ride height quality and adjustable from Cadillac ride to stiffer then viagra overload
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Old 06-14-2021, 12:29 PM #44
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BP51 can answer all on your checklist ride height quality and adjustable from Cadillac ride to stiffer then viagra overload
Mike

Doing a little more researchÖ. Now I discovered the Billy 8100s and the Elka set upÖ Cost of Ownership on Icon or BP-51

The Elka looks nice, corrosion resistant and no tools needed to adjust dampening. They are also adjustable ride height. Cost of Ownership on Icon or BP-51
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Old 06-14-2021, 01:06 PM #45
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Doing a little more research…. Now I discovered the Billy 8100s and the Elka set up… Cost of Ownership on Icon or BP-51

The Elka looks nice, corrosion resistant and no tools needed to adjust dampening. They are also adjustable ride height. Cost of Ownership on Icon or BP-51
I am not sold on the Elka, but I have learned about the 8100 series, currently waiting on my second 8100 rear shock. I have been in some contact with folks at Bilstein for years.

A buddy here got the 8112 but like me has just a single 8100 for now so he cannot do anything because his currently stock rear bottoms out at the sight of a woop.

There is no more advanced setup, unless you special order something, than the 8100 series for a 5th gen 4Runner. If you can get it for 4,000, it is also a "bargain" relative to the best Fox off the shelf setup in that the Bilstein is a much more sophisticated design for just a bit more money.

This has the Zone control video for the 8112. The next batch will include adjustable compression which you don't really need in the front (unless doing dunes)
BILSTEIN B8 8112 (ZoneControl(R) CR). - BILSTEIN

The 8112 comes standard with soft 550lb springs making for a great road ride. Unlike the 6112 on the same springs, it is better performing offroad with 550 from the little I was able to experience. I am sure it will suffice for your application. For now, I stick with 6112 on 650. It is a capable setup at low cost. Not plush on road, but not harsh with LTE tires either.

I can better answer 8100 questions. I have installed the one I have but it is coupled with a temporary Eibach on the other side My Icon 2.0 are disassembled with no oil.

One thing to know with the 8100s is that these are effectively race shocks. Their adjustments are not easy. You have to get under the vehicle to adjust compression and lift from the rock slider to adjust rebound. They are really performance oriented.


The 8100 is a step up from BP 51 or Fox 2.5, which are great in their own ways, but I am not sure you can really benefit from it considering your location. The BP 51 seems like a pain to adjust but may be easier than 8100s which are race style shocks and can in fact last a Baja 1000
You don't need hydraulic bump stops with the 8000 series setup though you don't need those anyway unless you do desert or dunes or a lot of beach. In normal use, road and dirt roads, the 8000 series may be able to last 100k between servicing. I personally hope for 50k with my use. My small non-resi Icons began to leak at 10k.

EDIT: for reference, one 8100 has more than 2.5 times the amount of oil in a 5100. It has a full 60 mm piston, the largest alongside KIng, also 60; Fox is 58. BP is 51.

EDIT 2: I expect the supply shock to swing the other way before too long with too much supply hitting a saturated market. I am not sure it will happen for this coming Thanksgiving, but while I don't expect better nominal prices I do expect actual holiday deals to re-appear in 2022. This excludes Bilstein 8000 series though. They have a very firm pricing and unless they now up the prices considerably so as to have wiggle room later, I don't see discounts exceeding 10% on the 8000 series. It is artisan style, premium shock produced in relatively small quantities and each shock is individually tested before it is sent on its way. It is not a mass produced unit. The quality of all hardware is great and the unit I have looks like it belongs on a spaceship, lol.

At the end, BP-51 may be just what you need. But 8000 series is surely a temptation
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