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Old 07-12-2020, 12:32 PM #16
DougR DougR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 702_SR5 View Post
I see videos that describe using one to check rotors, hubs, and other things. But not a rim. I've never used such a tool and have no idea how I would check a rim with one! Do you have a link to a page or video that demonstrates this?
See YouTube Start watching wheel lateral runout at 4:30. Tire radial and lateral runout is different, so start at the beginning of the video. Hub lateral runout starts at 7:00. See also detailed description of vibration type and source, wheel balance and driveline issues here Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum - View Single Post - Steering wheel vibration poll -- responses appreciated

Start by measuring tread depth at three locations across the face of each tire and various locations around the circumference (while avoiding the tread wear bars). Then measure tire radial and lateral runout. You're looking for one tire and wheel assembly that's worse than the others. When you have found it, then measure the wheel and hub runout to narrow down source of runout to either the tire, wheel or hub. It your case, the issue is most likely isolated to one tire. Record your measurements and post them here.

I've measured tire radial and lateral runout with and without a dial indicator by looking for the worst tire and wheel assembly, so comparative observations are needed. Drive vehicle to eliminate flat spots. Jack up all four corners so vehicle is off the ground. Lay a metal ruler or thin heavy bar on a heavy steady block and rotated tire, clamping ruler to block at point where it barely touches the tire at point of highest runout. Observe all four tires for lateral and radial runout. Observe tire radial runout at three locations across the face of the tire, inside shoulder, center and outside shoulder. I can easily see 1 mm runout by eye in favorable lighting conditions. With practice I've been able to estimate runout as low as 0.25 mm using feeler gauges. Mark two locations, (1) tire barely touches ruler and (2) maximum gap between tire and ruler, which equals runout. If you can't find one tire with obviously greater runout than the others start looking for other causes in the forum link.

To measure lateral runout on the wheels and hub, you'll need a dial indicator.

Max allowable tire runout is 3 mm (lateral and radial?). As little as 1 mm radial tire runout can produce wheel hop. Max allowable wheel runout is ???. Max allowable hub lateral runout is ???. Max allowable brake rotor runout is 0.05 mm (lateral).

Last edited by DougR; 07-12-2020 at 01:49 PM.
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Old 07-12-2020, 01:38 PM #17
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2012 TE 180k miles stock size no lift.

These 5th gens are finicky about tires...

I had a similar horrible experience many miles back on a set of Firestone A/t.

Went to duratracs which were much improved but still not good enough as they rotations and balancing to often.

Then to Coopers at34s for 62k great miles. I just put another set on.
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Old 07-12-2020, 03:44 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rightyouareken View Post
No I mean take the wheel and tire you think are the issue off and put the space wheel and tire on to confirm it’s really that pair and not something else.
The steering wheel shimmy only occurs when that particular wheel is on the front. As detailed in the OP, I'm at 32K miles and the wheels have been rotated a few times.

Though I'm not sure what's wrong with it, it seems certain that wheel is the problem. Or am I overlooking something?
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Old 07-12-2020, 04:20 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seatia View Post

The hub/bearings could also be suspect.

I'm old school so I won't cross rotate any tires.
They only get moved from front to back or back to front same side.
In other words, they always rotate in the same direction.
These days the tire manufacturers say it doesn't matter, but on my vehicle it does, I don't cross rotate.

I also don't rotate tires unless I see some abnormal wear, usually the front tires show first.
It seems to me you are wasting a lot of time, energy and money by rotating your tires so much, but it's your call.
You may be spending more money with all this balancing stuff than you would by never rotating and just replacing the tires when needed, even if it may be a few thousand miles early.
If the hub and/or bearings were the problem, wouldn't the steering wheel shimmy occur no matter which wheels were on the front? I'm not an expert on these things, so maybe I'm overlooking something.

I'm rotating at 6000-7000 miles, I don't think that's excessive. All the extra visits have been due to the steering wheel shimmy, when it occurs. How many miles do you usually go between rotations?

You see wear first on the front tires, on a vehicle that is usually rear-wheel drive?

BTW, I've not paid anything extra to DT for all this extra work. I bought the tires there so the rotation/balance and roadforcing has been provided at no cost. Even when it has been done multiple times. However, now that we're at this point, they don't seem to have any answers.

As for rotation patterns, that's another subject. I've found that different DT shops don't follow the same patterns.
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Old 07-12-2020, 04:49 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougR View Post
See also detailed description of vibration type and source, wheel balance and driveline issues here Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum - View Single Post - Steering wheel vibration poll -- responses appreciated
"TLR—Tire/Wheel Lateral runout: Vehicle speed
sensitive, mechanical vibration. The runout will not
cause vibration below 50 - 55 mph (80 - 88 km/h). Excessive
lateral runout will also cause front-end
shimmy."

This sounds like my problem. Manifested in my case as steering wheel shimmy at 55-65 mph. This only occurs when one particular wheel (tire & rim) is on the front end.

Your testing technique sounds promising, but I don't own a floor jack or jackstands. And the auto skills center at Nellis AFB is inaccessible to me (due to the base's Covid-related access restrictions). If I could get out there, I could put the vehicle on a lift.

I think tomorrow morning I'll look for a tire or other shop that will check it for me (while I watch like a hawk). Interesting that DT never suggested doing such a thing. Even though it might give them the chance to sell me a new rim.
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Old 07-12-2020, 05:50 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 702_SR5 View Post
If the hub and/or bearings were the problem, wouldn't the steering wheel shimmy occur no matter which wheels were on the front? I'm not an expert on these things, so maybe I'm overlooking something.

I'm rotating at 6000-7000 miles, I don't think that's excessive. All the extra visits have been due to the steering wheel shimmy, when it occurs. How many miles do you usually go between rotations?

You see wear first on the front tires, on a vehicle that is usually rear-wheel drive?

BTW, I've not paid anything extra to DT for all this extra work. I bought the tires there so the rotation/balance and roadforcing has been provided at no cost. Even when it has been done multiple times. However, now that we're at this point, they don't seem to have any answers.

As for rotation patterns, that's another subject. I've found that different DT shops don't follow the same patterns.
If you do find runout on the rim, it would be prudent to go ahead and test the hub anyway while you are set up. It's just being thorough
Shimmying over a period of time will cause extra wear on things including the steering rack and joints.
But you are completely correct, it sounds like a wheel or tire or both right now.

I don't rotate unless there is noticeable wear.
As an example, on my car there is none so far and I'm and 31k miles on the new tires.
The 4 runner has approx 4500 miles since new and still look like new.
Front tires usually show wear faster simply because of the turning involved.
My ex, the Uturn queen would wear out a pair of front tire in no time.
Uturns are very hard on tire wear.

It's not surprising the tire places are only doing the minimum required for free.
And even if paid, I don't know if many would be able to properly measure with a dial indicator.

If you caan't find a solution put the shakey tire on the back at least.
If you were local, I would do your runout test.
Good luck, but just take my word for not cross rotating tires.
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Old 07-12-2020, 09:04 PM #22
85GT-79FJ40 85GT-79FJ40 is offline
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I bought mine with 35k miles on it about 2 years ago. Stock tires were smooth as glass. 3 days later swapped them out for Grabber ATX tires in stock size on the stock wheels. No problem. obviously not as smooth being an A/T tire but still no vibration issues whatsoever. Even ran them with spidertrax spacers for six months after I lifted it. Decided to put Method wheels and 285's on it 2 months or so ago.... Started with Falken's and they shook horribly. Had them balanced I think 4 times last time being road force where 2 were found to out of round. Got a local dealer to warranty them which was great. They installed BFG A/T's which has always been my go-to A/T tire for the last 25 years. Horrible horrible shaking. Worse than the falkens. Swapped those out 3 days later for the new Toyo open country AT3's. Smooth and quiet as the stock tires but still shaking.... Finally brought the truck to the dealer and had a master tech road force them. All single digits now and it's smooth as glass 70 percent of the time. Still occasionally shakes from 55-65 but then I go around a corner or use the brakes and it stops. Weird. Something else has to be going on.
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Old 07-13-2020, 10:45 AM #23
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Hey don’t feel bad. I went thru 3 different sets of Falkens stock size on my Pro and all shaked between 50 60 mph. Put my oem Nitto’s back on. No issue. I believe the 4runner does not like the aggressive tires.
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Old 07-13-2020, 11:14 AM #24
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Hey don’t feel bad. I went thru 3 different sets of Falkens stock size on my Pro and all shaked between 50 60 mph. Put my oem Nitto’s back on. No issue. I believe the 4runner does not like the aggressive tires.
Nope, Falkens are just notoriously out of round and very difficult to balance.
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Old 07-13-2020, 11:53 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85GT-79FJ40 View Post
...Finally brought the truck to the dealer and had a master tech road force them. All single digits now and it's smooth as glass 70 percent of the time. Still occasionally shakes from 55-65 but then I go around a corner or use the brakes and it stops. Weird. Something else has to be going on.
As described in the OP, I took mine to dealer too. But I dunno if it was a master tech who did it. Though I'd discussed the matter--and all the efforts made to fix it--with them beforehand.

Long story short, after I got it back, the same wheel was causing the same steering wheel shimmy.
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Old 07-13-2020, 12:11 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 702_SR5 View Post
As described in the OP, I took mine to dealer too. But I dunno if it was a master tech who did it. Though I'd discussed the matter--and all the efforts made to fix it--with them beforehand.

Long story short, after I got it back, the same wheel was causing the same steering wheel shimmy.
702_ which DT are you dealing with in town? I have the same problem on my 20 trdor w/ aftermarket rims(vision) and tires (ko2s)
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:55 AM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85GT-79FJ40 View Post
I bought mine with 35k miles on it about 2 years ago. Stock tires were smooth as glass. 3 days later swapped them out for Grabber ATX tires in stock size on the stock wheels. No problem. obviously not as smooth being an A/T tire but still no vibration issues whatsoever. Even ran them with spidertrax spacers for six months after I lifted it. Decided to put Method wheels and 285's on it 2 months or so ago.... Started with Falken's and they shook horribly. Had them balanced I think 4 times last time being road force where 2 were found to out of round. Got a local dealer to warranty them which was great. They installed BFG A/T's which has always been my go-to A/T tire for the last 25 years. Horrible horrible shaking. Worse than the falkens. Swapped those out 3 days later for the new Toyo open country AT3's. Smooth and quiet as the stock tires but still shaking.... Finally brought the truck to the dealer and had a master tech road force them. All single digits now and it's smooth as glass 70 percent of the time. Still occasionally shakes from 55-65 but then I go around a corner or use the brakes and it stops. Weird. Something else has to be going on.
BFG A/Ts are probably one of the worst quality tires out there. Love the tread design, but hate their quality. I guess the fact that they don't even offer a warranty on them should be sending us a huge message.

I've been running Cooper AT3s and mixed results. Had one punctured through the tread while doing some pretty tame off roading. Now I've had one from that same set start to have the belts separate and another severely out of round.
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Old 07-15-2020, 06:05 PM #28
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What tires aren't going to run into this issue? I keep reading about how "X tire" has reasons to cause such vibrations. I want a more aggressive tread but not at the cost of these sorts of issues.
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Old 07-15-2020, 06:38 PM #29
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What tires aren't going to run into this issue? I keep reading about how "X tire" has reasons to cause such vibrations. I want a more aggressive tread but not at the cost of these sorts of issues.
Now you’re starting to get it. Pick a tire, and you can find someone with a 5th gen complaining of steering wheel vibration and the saga they went through to find THEIR fix.

Pick the tires you want, get them roadforce balanced as well as humanly possible, and figure out what you’re willing to live with and how far you’ll go to get there. Proceed accordingly.

My shiz rides like silk after a RF balance on E load KO2s which people love to sh1t on here, but the rear has 3-4 weights per tire and the front has none. I’m sure when I go to rotate, I’ll have them RF balanced again in hopes they can do better but who TF knows with these vehicles. I might be forced to keep the less balanced wheels in the back for their entire life. Whatever. If it pisses me off enough I’ll go get a Bronco.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:58 AM #30
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I have read many post on tire issues on the 4runner and seem the majority tires are always the more aggressive tire.
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