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Old 07-14-2020, 11:05 AM #16
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Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
I run out to various spots on the hole in the rock road in the grand staircase. On the wide open sections I'll run 60-80+mph. The remote places are 100+ miles out. If you're going to drive at 20mph it'll take 5 hours to get out there.

I'm not going that kind of speed over blind hills, only when I can see long open stretches with no vehicles, but it's just a very long very rough washboard road. The pony express trail is often the same way. No cars in sight for 10 miles - that's when you can have some fun.

I understand your concern and I'm all for having fun - but only if it's safe. This is the sort of place where you're only endangering yourself. When there's other people around I slow up to a safe speed - probably around 20-30mph to pass other cars. If you haven't been there - it looks like this for 75 miles straight and then side roads go for another 70+ miles off the end:
Actually I have been there. Beautiful place, but those wide open roads are far different than most of the dirt roads along the Mogollon Rim in AZ . The rim roads are through pine forest with many hidden side roads and are busy with ATV/Quad traffic. I'm not saying don't have fun, and I appreciate your consideration for others. I wish there were more back country drivers who would drive with the same consideration. BTW, that could have been me driving 20 mph that you passed. My vehicles all come with a speed limiter controlled from the passenger seat (wife) LOL!
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Old 07-14-2020, 11:39 AM #17
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Originally Posted by swampy_swimmer View Post
Gents, what are the average charges to run a day long trail you pay at your locations?
The reason for this question is here in NY I found just one place and they charge $300 / truck for a daily trail, well more like a scenic mountain drive.
I think it’s a bit excessive. Am I wrong?
I'd like to know where this place is too. Is it in a state or national forest ?

The only thing I can think of is that its near a bunch of rich people homes or used by a bunch of wealthy people and they want to reduce or eliminate the redneck, dirtbag, drunk'n, stupid, half nek'd, dirty, 4 wheel'n types so they paid off a politician and that person jacked up the price. Just' say'n
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Old 07-14-2020, 01:34 PM #18
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The only place I've ever paid a trail fee is for use of the Sand Flat's area in Moab (Hell's Revenge trail). It's $10. Otherwise almost all the trails I've ever done are public land and "free". Unless you consider taxes and other ways that government is funded.

Unfortunately the fawking ultra-conservatives (sorry about politics, but it has to be said and it's not the "I want reasonable small government", it's the "tax is theft" crowd) - have continually pushed to privatize the public lands in the west and now it's starting to actually happen. So be prepared to see access totally denied and/or fees charged to use what was public BLM land through out big swaths of the western USA. It's totally baffling to me how a group of predominantly low income outdoorsy people have been convinced that somehow if public lands are privatized that they'll actually still be able to use them. In what version of reality did they ever think that would happen? Of course the ultra wealthy will buy the leases or sales and kick them out.

-end rant
This has been a huge fear of mine for a while now. At least the outdoor recreation industry recognizes it and is strongly against it. Unfortunately they are also generally against 4x4s as well, but the greatest threat right now is privatization of BLM/USFW/NF/ect. land by idiots. We can hopefully work with the outdoor recreation industry to get some recognition of recreational 4x4 users as people on their side too. Field and Stream (and hunters and fisherman, who are generally conservative) are aware of the issue in many cases now and are strongly against it. I remember a few years ago when Jason Chaffetz in your state came out in favor of the federal government giving its lands to the state of Utah. He quickly backtracked after being roasted from all sides and is now thankfully out of politics.

If anyone thinks state control of public lands is a good thing just look to my state - Texas - and I can tell you its not. When Texas joined the US as an independent country, not a territory, the treaty stipulated Texas got to keep its public land, which was basically everything west of San Antonio, and not give it to the federal government. Over time they sold all of it and now Texas is over 95% private and I have to drive to New Mexico to access large amounts of public land. This happened throughout the western US, not just Texas. Most states sold off vast amounts of their public domain to pay the bills because they have to. The federal government can run deficits and doesn't have to balance the budget by selling land. Anyone that's not Ted Turner will be locked out of vast swaths of land if states ever sell them as the super rich and mining/drilling companies will buy it.

Not to disagree with you too much or wade further into politics, but its not the dirtbag outdoor types who are in favor of privatization/state ownership, its the local ranchers like the Bundys and LaVoy Finnecum. But they're also nuts if they think they'd be able to buy the land at market rates that they currently lease from the feds for next to nothing. Again, the rich and corporate interests wold be the ones buying the land, not local yeoman ranchers.


I appreciate your rant and think this issue should be publicized far and wide. We have public lands in this country available for all manner of outdoor recreation/enjoyment that are absolutely unrivaled in the world, we can't let them be privatized.

Edit. I will add that the whole "overland" fad and just the general increases in traffic in places I like to recreate is super annoying , but one good thing that may come from it is more people to advocate for this land remaining in the control of the federal government.
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Old 07-14-2020, 05:12 PM #19
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On the wide open sections I'll run 60-80+mph.
I’m happy to get 80+mph on the interstate.
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Old 07-14-2020, 08:08 PM #20
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Actually I have been there. Beautiful place, but those wide open roads are far different than most of the dirt roads along the Mogollon Rim in AZ . The rim roads are through pine forest with many hidden side roads and are busy with ATV/Quad traffic. I'm not saying don't have fun, and I appreciate your consideration for others. I wish there were more back country drivers who would drive with the same consideration. BTW, that could have been me driving 20 mph that you passed. My vehicles all come with a speed limiter controlled from the passenger seat (wife) LOL!
For the record, I kept it around 20 to 30 mph on the Rim for the most part and tend to only open it up if I am in clear areas similar to what was shown. My point was that I could easily push my Pro a lot easier than my 2012 JKU Rubicon (which was honestly all over the place with the solid front axle usually at more than about 25 mph). I also didn't feel like I was going to blow my shocks apart doing so as I would have on my Trail .

We came up FR504 from AZ99 via Winslow to check out the back route to Heber. We literally saw one other vehicle covering something like 40 miles up there and the beginning of that run was on BLM two track that was really wide open. Did some exploring up by Black Canyon Lake otherwise and then headed east for awhile on Rim Road. That area was generally too congested and blind as you mention though to push much over 25 mph. Quite rocky in spots also. Way less people as we went further East towards Overgaard though.
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Old 07-14-2020, 09:30 PM #21
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Haven't been to either, but 30 seems the going rate around KS, MO and Arkansas. Just got back from the Steamboat area and lots of nice free forest roads available.
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Old 07-14-2020, 09:31 PM #22
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For the record, I kept it around 20 to 30 mph on the Rim for the most part and tend to only open it up if I am in clear areas similar to what was shown. My point was that I could easily push my Pro a lot easier than my 2012 JKU Rubicon (which was honestly all over the place with the solid front axle usually at more than about 25 mph). I also didn't feel like I was going to blow my shocks apart doing so as I would have on my Trail .

We came up FR504 from AZ99 via Winslow to check out the back route to Heber. We literally saw one other vehicle covering something like 40 miles up there and the beginning of that run was on BLM two track that was really wide open. Did some exploring up by Black Canyon Lake otherwise and then headed east for awhile on Rim Road. That area was generally too congested and blind as you mention though to push much over 25 mph. Quite rocky in spots also. Way less people as we went further East towards Overgaard though.
Sorry--didn't mean to sound like Mr. Crabbypants! Thank you for the clarification. I know some sections are worse than others for congestion and I have met some drivers who don't have the same consideration as you.

Those are some great areas to explore and I feel we are very fortunate to have access to roads/trails without having to pay "trail fees" like the OP mentioned.
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Old 07-14-2020, 11:21 PM #23
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I'm from NY as well and I'm looking for offroad trails. Curious where you found $300/truck/day?
I was able to find NORA (Northeast Off Road Adventures) in Ellenville, NY but they are more instruction based. Hunter Mountain also has trails but I think they require a guide and I'm not sure about the cost. NORA offers events at Hunter as well.
I'm very curious to what else you find in the NY area. Feel free to PM me also.
Yes, Sir, NORA. Hunter Mntn. Check this out:
Hunter Mountain 4x4 Driving Tour - Sat, Jul 25 2020 - Northeast Off-Road Adventures

And it’s all prescheduled. I couldn’t find anything else in the state...
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Old 07-14-2020, 11:28 PM #24
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I'd like to know where this place is too. Is it in a state or national forest ?

The only thing I can think of is that its near a bunch of rich people homes or used by a bunch of wealthy people and they want to reduce or eliminate the redneck, dirtbag, drunk'n, stupid, half nek'd, dirty, 4 wheel'n types so they paid off a politician and that person jacked up the price. Just' say'n
Hunter Mountain 4x4 Driving Tour - Sat, Jul 25 2020 - Northeast Off-Road Adventures

It looks like they privatized mountain area, built an expensive lodge there and offering guided tours there.
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Old 07-15-2020, 12:55 AM #25
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This is the first time I've ever heard of paying for a trail, that's insane.
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Old 07-15-2020, 02:07 AM #26
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Sorry--didn't mean to sound like Mr. Crabbypants! Thank you for the clarification. I know some sections are worse than others for congestion and I have met some drivers who don't have the same consideration as you.

Those are some great areas to explore and I feel we are very fortunate to have access to roads/trails without having to pay "trail fees" like the OP mentioned.
Amen. Nothing scares me more than the UTV barreling at you at 50 mph coming around a hill or a blind turn. Have had that experience a few times where the UTV pretty much went full on code brown (locked up wheels and go for a ride).

I honestly wouldn't see the point of owning these vehicles if I still lived in the east I think. I hate to say it, but just don't see the need for it for the most part.

Occasionally you'd get on a pretty muddy forest road or something out there if you were into hiking and what not, but nothing compared to what you can find in your backyard in most western metro areas.
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:14 AM #27
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Amen. Nothing scares me more than the UTV barreling at you at 50 mph coming around a hill or a blind turn. Have had that experience a few times where the UTV pretty much went full on code brown (locked up wheels and go for a ride).

I honestly wouldn't see the point of owning these vehicles if I still lived in the east I think. I hate to say it, but just don't see the need for it for the most part.

Occasionally you'd get on a pretty muddy forest road or something out there if you were into hiking and what not, but nothing compared to what you can find in your backyard in most western metro areas.
I see your point and partially agree, however there’re some other opportunities where I live, particularly for me and guys like me. We drive on the beaches a lot (surf fishing), in winter we go up north to ice fish, you need a reliable vehicle for that, not all the roads are paved, but off course its not like Utah or Colorado here where you can just go rock crawling at any given time. That’s why I wanted to explore, but I guess NYS clearly sucks in it.
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:49 AM #28
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Hope you are skilled at doing an emergency stop @ 50mph on dirt. Please post which dirt road you are blasting next so I can avoid it. Thanks.
Have you ever been on FR300, that is the average speed for every other vehicle on it, especially the SxS.
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Old 07-15-2020, 09:56 AM #29
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Gents, what are the average charges to run a day long trail you pay at your locations?
The reason for this question is here in NY I found just one place and they charge $300 / truck for a daily trail, well more like a scenic mountain drive.
I think it’s a bit excessive. Am I wrong?
Whoa, time to move to the free states. lol

In the southwest we are lucky to have all of the public lands that we do. There are hundreds of trails within an hour or two of my house.
It's just unfortunate that so many people treat our public lands like it's their private property, we will eventually lose access to it and have to pay... like NY.
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Old 07-15-2020, 10:38 AM #30
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Have you ever been on FR300, that is the average speed for every other vehicle on it, especially the SxS.
Rim road-yep. You are correct, and every year yahoos crash their UTV, SXS, etc. there and are killed. Last month two killed when their CanAm "went airborne" and wrapped around a tree .

That road used to be called one of the most scenic in the state. I don't understand the rush to get to the other end. Guess some don't go there for the views.
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