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Old 07-16-2020, 07:10 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jp.vegas View Post
Exactly. There was nothing innovative about it, no special offroad features that the 4Runner didn't have etc. It was however a lot smaller, a lot more cramped, rode like ass due to the short wheelbase etc. At the end of the day, no one bought many of them anyway despite their professed desire for a "hard core" offroader from Toyota and it was left to die when the 150 based 4Runner was refreshed.

I never understood the love for that thing but to each their own.
Jonathan Ward of ICON was hired by Toyota to do prototypes for the FJ Cruiser. And his comments about what Ford should do were pretty telling. They were basically
skip the prepacked shit (let people configure them any way they want including off road stuff on base models)
Have some luxury options - you can both go after the G wagon market and the base model market.
You need a 2 door model.
Don't try too hard to make it a clone of the old one.
V8 would be better than a turbo 6.
It has to have a MT
Don't focus group it - focus groups kill most great concepts.

Seems like Ford did quite a few, but not all of them.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:29 PM #32
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Originally Posted by spartacus View Post
Toyota's motto, " Lets go places" means exactly that. Toyota mechanical horse will get you there and back, the rest of the gizmos etc will do you no good if you are stranded. Toyota doesn't care, it's an extremely profitable company. It will change when it starts loosing market share to other manufacturers.
Almost all of the world's car manufacturers want the Toyota's secret of building reliable vehicles that out sell other similar models with better gizmos and performance.
The Toyota Group is currently on top of the market, registering the best year to date performance in the Top 10 and after managing to somewhat “contain” the losses compared to the followers in the Covid-19 crisis. Indeed, Toyota Group in May 2020 was reaching 12.8% market share.
4runner sales are increasing annually in fact the 5th Gen is by far the best selling model.
I recall many years ago hearing about Toyota leaning very heavily on their suppliers/vendors. Toyota was emerging from what was essentially a life-or-death struggle for survival, and their suppliers had to maintain an insane degree of reliability for their parts, or be cut out as suppliers. IIRC, it was VERY cutthroat. You had to be the shizzle if you were to supply Toyota with voltage regulators or whatever.

Today, the market is ridiculously more competitive. Everyone makes a decent SUV, for example. In my opinion, Toyota has played a major part since the 70s/80s in upping the quality game of the entire industry. In return, they have to be even better, but also, need to keep in mind that their vendors supply other manufacturers. So it's more difficult, I imagine. Sitting on a tried-and-true (old?) design becomes increasingly attractive, I would think, because each year you're successful offsets your R&D of previous years. Financially speaking, you can reap more rewards the longer your product remains unchanged (or little-changed). It's common sense.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:49 PM #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
Jonathan Ward of ICON was hired by Toyota to do prototypes for the FJ Cruiser. And his comments about what Ford should do were pretty telling. They were basically
skip the prepacked shit (let people configure them any way they want including off road stuff on base models)
Have some luxury options - you can both go after the G wagon market and the base model market.
You need a 2 door model.
Don't try too hard to make it a clone of the old one.
V8 would be better than a turbo 6.
It has to have a MT
Don't focus group it - focus groups kill most great concepts.

Seems like Ford did quite a few, but not all of them.
It's a big deal that you can get all the off road stuff on a base model, with Toyota you always have to get a much higher trim to get all the 4x4 stuff.

Whether that's something that will happen in practice is another story, as dealers love to get vehicles optioned in 'popular' packages and will make it time and cost prohibitive for you to order your own--Porsche is probably the only car company that will let you option a vehicle any damn way you want.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:56 PM #34
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Originally Posted by LandCruiser View Post
It's a big deal that you can get all the off road stuff on a base model, with Toyota you always have to get a much higher trim to get all the 4x4 stuff.

Whether that's something that will happen in practice is another story, as dealers love to get vehicles optioned in 'popular' packages and will make it time and cost prohibitive for you to order your own--Porsche is probably the only car company that will let you option a vehicle any damn way you want.
Porsche = for a sh!t ton of money.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:57 PM #35
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Originally Posted by mteolus View Post
The FJ Cruiser was just a shortened version of the 4Runner. Not much thought put into its design. Horrible blind spots and back doors that won't open if the front ones aren't opened first. Not sure they are more prone to flipping than 4runners, but that Black Bear Pass video of one flipping was disturbing.
Hrm, I had never seen that video and just searched for it. That had to be terrible line selection.

I think there was pictures of a TRD Pro 4Runner a few years flipped in that same area. Folks need to know you cannot go diagonally down a steep ledge. Ugh.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:58 PM #36
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Say what you will, but the 4Runner is still a great bang for the buck. If Toyota constantly updates the design the consumer pays for it.
As it is now you can spend a lot more on a Wrangler and still have less vehicle - even if it is more capable off road. But if that's what you want then buy a Wrangler.
Personally I think we need to be very careful what we ask for, or the 4Runner might become just another bling machine.
And one more thing - resale. It's strong because a three year old 4runner still looks like a new one. That and reliability.
The V6 isn't a race horse, but at 65 hp per liter it'll last damn near forever. The Wrangler and the Bronco may very well become time bombs engine wise. If and when Bronco and Wrangler engines go south there's going to be some upset people! But the writing is on the wall. Ford and Jeep are trying to do too much with too little - in my opinion.

Last edited by 750ml; 07-16-2020 at 08:04 PM. Reason: More thoughts to add.
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Old 07-16-2020, 07:59 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spartacus View Post
Toyota's motto, " Lets go places" means exactly that. Toyota mechanical horse will get you there and back, the rest of the gizmos etc will do you no good if you are stranded. Toyota doesn't care, it's an extremely profitable company. It will change when it starts loosing market share to other manufacturers.
Almost all of the world's car manufacturers want the Toyota's secret of building reliable vehicles that out sell other similar models with better gizmos and performance.
The Toyota Group is currently on top of the market, registering the best year to date performance in the Top 10 and after managing to somewhat “contain” the losses compared to the followers in the Covid-19 crisis. Indeed, Toyota Group in May 2020 was reaching 12.8% market share.
4runner sales are increasing annually in fact the 5th Gen is by far the best selling model.
Not completely true. 2019 sales were down compared to 2018...
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:02 PM #38
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Originally Posted by LandCruiser View Post
Whether that's something that will happen in practice is another story, as dealers love to get vehicles optioned in 'popular' packages and will make it time and cost prohibitive for you to order your own--Porsche is probably the only car company that will let you option a vehicle any damn way you want.
Having just gone through a custom order with a Rover, JLR is pretty damn close to Porsche in that regard.

Incredible amount of trim levels combined with the ability to jump into option packages or stand alone features on lower trims to add a lot of content you maybe wouldn't get otherwise.

Slightly different than Toyota where you can't even custom order a vehicle if you wanted.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:07 PM #39
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Quote:
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Porsche is probably the only car company that will let you option a vehicle any damn way you want.
Yep, and you pay dearly for it.

I have a feeling if Toyota could get away with charging you $390 for a leather fuse box cover like they do in a 911, they would do it too. Heck, for another $2000 you can get your air vents wrapped in leather.

The add options alone on my business partners Porsche costs more than my Limited.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:14 PM #40
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Originally Posted by AZ Craig View Post
Having just gone through a custom order with a Rover, JLR is pretty damn close to Porsche in that regard.

Incredible amount of trim levels combined with the ability to jump into option packages or stand alone features on lower trims to add a lot of content you maybe wouldn't get otherwise.

Slightly different than Toyota where you can't even custom order a vehicle if you wanted.
But isn’t a Porsche or JLR significantly more expensive, with very little off-road capability? Apples and oranges here?
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:26 PM #41
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Please don't F with the cruise control stick! Reminds me of my 03 IS (rest in power)
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:31 PM #42
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But isn’t a Porsche or JLR significantly more expensive, with very little off-road capability? Apples and oranges here?
Offroad capability has nothing to do with this point though. More fundamental way automotive manufacturers produce cars and ship. Toyota allows effectively zero customization and forces you into very specific options packages and trim levels.

A Toyota Camry has the same stupid ordering restrictions and it has similar offroad capability to a Jaguar .

For the record also, the Discovery is probably as capable as a 4Runner except for the fact that the tires lack of sidewall is an Achilles' heel. From what I've seen on the new Defender, I think it's likely going to be just as capable as a 4Runner to be honest, if not more so. I think it can pretty easily take 65 series sidewall tires which is a huge plus.
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Old 07-16-2020, 08:34 PM #43
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Being built in Japan at Tahara ONLY, and then shipped here effects what can be done within the margins. Also the relatively low volume means they don't need or want to make it complicated to produce. I could buy anything I wanted, and I went with the 4Runner again because I don't like Tech crap, just a solid, proven vehicle. Safety junk is the LEAST important consideration I look at, while the fact it was made IN Japan is very comforting to Me. I have been Toyota loyal since 78 SR-5 Pick-up and value, simple, Stout construction are my priority.
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:51 PM #44
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... dash layouts almost as often as I change underwear. Why? Seldom are these changes earth-shattering, they just make it look different and maybe slightly modify some trivial functionality.
Yah, this drives me nuts. Now it's easy with all the SW they use.

I bought it in configuration A and they decide to change it to configuration B. It's because Toyota allows children to design their SW. The kids don't have anything better to do than "improve" something and push it to my truck as a "mandatory SW update" only to find out I can't listen to whatever they decide no one uses anymore.

Geez I really miss the days of manual door locks and crank windows. It worked the same every time. If it didn't you got tools, from a tool box, and fixed it. I realize that practically no one on this forum knows what all that stuff is so I've included some pictures.




BTW Does anybody have an 8-track adapter for the 4runner?
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Old 07-16-2020, 10:51 PM #45
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Buying an unreliable expensive suv with factory options is no fun. Buying a reliable 4runner and modding it your self is part of the fun. Turning it into a great off road rig that was built to each indivduals preference is satisfying. Get what ever rig you feel comfortable with and enjoy God's green earth. I love to see the little Subaru's with AT tires, roof top tent and bikes out there in the back country, heck I even saw one with a snorkel, wonder if it was a factory option?

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