Toyota owners seem to be a fickle group - Page 5 - Toyota 4Runner Forum

AZ Craig · 07-17-2020, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apc9199

Agreed, I'm not sure where these talking points are even coming from. I don't know of any automakers that are still offering anything more than simple alterations within their preset packages. I considered a Grand Cherokee when they started making them with a Diesel. I wanted a comfortable workhorse SUV that I could take camping, etc, and had gobs of power. Well, the Diesel motor isn't an option without the luxury package with all the technology BS for an extra $6K, and even then it had to be oredered that way because all the dealer stock was the "Overland" package which was another 4-5K more on top of that. This sounds like a pointless argument to me. If Wranglers were built like Toyota's and had all the extra options available to choose from, they would be priced like Land Rovers...

You haven't tried building a JL Wrangler lately have you? A Rubicon can run well over $60000.

That is priced like a Land Rover. I can go get a nice Discovery Landmark Edition for the same damn price!

mteolus · 07-17-2020, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZ Craig

You haven't tried building a JL Wrangler lately have you? A Rubicon can run well over $60000.

No competition. Hopefully Bronco will bring the prices down some with a possible competitor. Nothing else really has been a true competitor to the Wrangler.

apc9199 · 07-17-2020, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AZ Craig

You haven't tried building a JL Wrangler lately have you? A Rubicon can run well over $60000.

That is priced like a Land Rover. I can go get a nice Discovery Landmark Edition for the same damn price!

Why would I? An overpriced Fiat-Daimler-Chrysler vehicle that cant pass a front end crash test and doesn't hold its trade-in value? I'll pass!

GupsT4R · 07-17-2020, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by itr1275

It's not news. The 4runner does a bunch of stuff "good enough".

I looked a the:

Wrangler/Gladiator - hated the boxy design and awkward doors. Not to mention they don't drive straight ever.

Looked at the Colorado, but wasn't quite convinced when it came to writing a check.

Tacoma is always good, but expensive for what you get.

F-150 is a great driving vehicle but way too big for my area.

Cherokee Trail Hawk - Garbage.

In the end the 4runner was the best all around choice. Not as nice to drive as the F-150 or offroad capable as the "real" jeeps nor as featured as the Colorado nor useful as the Tacoma. But it's a known quantity. So I'm one of they guys that buys "good enough" at a lot of things.

Just thought it was funny that right under the article that says not to but a 4runner there was a "hey buy a jeep" article.

Lets be honest here Toyota build quality and reliability is above and beyond.

I think "good enough" come from everything else (tech, safety. comfort, 4x4 features) that comes with the 4runner that we're not 100% amazed by and would choose to live with or modify to suit our own preference.

The new toyota safety sense and 8" navi multimedia tech upgrades in the 2020 are definitely not the best systems in the automotive arena but are note worthy upgrades that will draw a lot of people into a 2020 4runner

FYI those Cherokee Trail Hawks are everywhere in my town..like everywhere and 90% driven by women. You'd be amazed at how many "Jeep Girl" stickers and decals i see on a daily basis.

Harlock · 07-17-2020, 04:27 PM

As we knock this thread back and forth over what we think Toyota should be doing and what we want, I think it's important for us to consider their recent history.

Toyota is a conservative Japanese company that has long upheld the concept of "kaizen" or "continuous improvement" as one of it's most esteemed core values. As a result, the company has been more iterative than innovative and the result has been a long history of building reliable, low-defect, although perhaps less exciting, vehicles. Because of this Toyota had a long tradition of building their vehicles on the three pillars of reliability, durability and quality. This focus remained consistent until the 2000s when things changed significantly.

In 1995, Hiroshi Okuda was appointed the company’s new president. Aggressive in his desire to transform Toyota, Okuda created a “2005 vision” for the company that called for rapid growth in global market share over the next decade. In 2000, as part of this, Toyota initiated a radically new purchasing strategy called “Construction of Cost Competitiveness for the 21st Century.” This plan called for selecting suppliers on the basis of globally competitive target prices. The goal was to reduce costs by 30% over three years.

Takahiro Fujimoto, a well-regarded Japanese researcher on Toyota, reported that in the wake of their rapid growth, Toyota increasingly failed to properly evaluate and approve components designed by outside overseas suppliers.

In 2007, Consumer Reports noted that Toyota's overall vehicle quality, had declined. In 2008, they decided to no longer to give automatic “recommended” rating to all Toyota models based on their previous evaluations. David Champion, then senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, stated at the time that Toyota's vehicle quality had measurably decreased.

Here are some examples of what followed:

In 2004 in Japan and later in 2005 in the US, Toyota recalled pickups and SUVs for steering defects.
In 2009-10 Toyota faced an unprecedented crisis as it recalled 9 million US vehicles for "unintended acceleration," in what became the largest recall since that of Ford Motor Company in 1996.
In 2012, Toyota recalled 7.43 million vehicles worldwide to fix malfunctioning power window switches.
Throughout this period, Toyota also had a number of other recalls for issues such as faulty airbags, damaged trim panels, and even suspension components that were damaged during installation at the factory. They also brought back numerous vehicles for "warranty repairs" such as cracking dashboards on 4th Gen 4Runners.

All of this strained Toyota's stellar relationships with suppliers and significantly damaged people's perceptions about Toyota's quality. So in 2009, Akio Toyoda - grandson of the company's founder, took over as president with the goal of returning Toyota to it's roots. He has gone on record as stating that Okuda's plans for Toyota had worked so well that by 2003 sales were growing faster than the company could manage and that the all-out focus on growth had warped the “order of Toyota’s traditional priorities.”

Since then, Toyota may not have been the most exciting company, but they have made significant efforts to improve what they're building. Under Toyoda, the company has reorganized to deliberately slow down product development, established a team of about 1,000 quality engineers, and greatly expanded its rapid quality response teams across the globe.

During the efforts to remake the company, Toyota has been hampered by a number natural disasters in Japan such as the 2011 Tsunami which damaged their factories, two earthquakes in 2016 that halted automotive operations across the country and a Typhoon in 2018 that caused Toyota to close 11 of its factories early, cancelling evening shifts.

In light of this, the fact that the 5th Gen still doesn't have LEDs and the 6th Gen remains little more than an idea should be less surprising. Right now, Toyota is more focused on regaining their traditional three pillars than they are on adding the hottest new features.

The Bronco's launch will almost certainly serve as a reminder to Toyota that because time ever marches forward and people's interests continuously change, the 4Runner cannot stay the same forever. The Bronco is an example of how Americans often often prefer innovation to iteration. We enjoy pushing the envelope to extend the limits of what's possible. But as the owners of the last body-on-frame mid-size SUV being made, we should also be among the first to appreciate Toyota's reluctance to rapidly change.

So are forum members divided because we argue about what's important? Just like other humans, we are thrilled by the innovation and creativity of the latest gadgets and newest fashions. Yet we still having the capacity to appreciate the detail and craftsmanship that goes into creating things like ancient Japanese swords. The fact that the processes and mindsets that go into making each are vastly different and rarely compatible often force us to choose which beliefs should have the priority. But I don't think that makes us fickle. We are not complacent creatures and can still want 35" tires from the factory while taking pride in a drivetrain meticulously built to last hundreds of thousands of miles.

LandCruiser · 07-17-2020, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlock

As we knock this thread back and forth over what we think Toyota should be doing and what we want, I think it's important for us to consider their recent history.

Toyota is a conservative Japanese company that has long upheld the concept of "kaizen" or "continuous improvement" as one of it's most esteemed core values. As a result, the company has been more iterative than innovative and the result has been a long history of building reliable, low-defect, although perhaps less exciting, vehicles. Because of this Toyota had a long tradition of building their vehicles on the three pillars of reliability, durability and quality. This focus remained consistent until the 2000s when things changed significantly.

In 1995, Hiroshi Okuda was appointed the company’s new president. Aggressive in his desire to transform Toyota, Okuda created a “2005 vision” for the company that called for rapid growth in global market share over the next decade. In 2000, as part of this, Toyota initiated a radically new purchasing strategy called “Construction of Cost Competitiveness for the 21st Century.” This plan called for selecting suppliers on the basis of globally competitive target prices. The goal was to reduce costs by 30% over three years.

Takahiro Fujimoto, a well-regarded Japanese researcher on Toyota, reported that in the wake of their rapid growth, Toyota increasingly failed to properly evaluate and approve components designed by outside overseas suppliers.

In 2007, Consumer Reports noted that Toyota's overall vehicle quality, had declined. In 2008, they decided to no longer to give automatic “recommended” rating to all Toyota models based on their previous evaluations. David Champion, then senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, stated at the time that Toyota's vehicle quality had measurably decreased.

Here are some examples of what followed:

In 2004 in Japan and later in 2005 in the US, Toyota recalled pickups and SUVs for steering defects.
In 2009-10 Toyota faced an unprecedented crisis as it recalled 9 million US vehicles for "unintended acceleration," in what became the largest recall since that of Ford Motor Company in 1996.
In 2012, Toyota recalled 7.43 million vehicles worldwide to fix malfunctioning power window switches.
Throughout this period, Toyota also had a number of other recalls for issues such as faulty airbags, damaged trim panels, and even suspension components that were damaged during installation at the factory. They also brought back numerous vehicles for "warranty repairs" such as cracking dashboards on 4th Gen 4Runners.

All of this strained Toyota's stellar relationships with suppliers and significantly damaged people's perceptions about Toyota's quality. So in 2009, Akio Toyoda - grandson of the company's founder, took over as president with the goal of returning Toyota to it's roots. He has gone on record as stating that Okuda's plans for Toyota had worked so well that by 2003 sales were growing faster than the company could manage and that the all-out focus on growth had warped the “order of Toyota’s traditional priorities.”

Since then, Toyota may not have been the most exciting company, but they have made significant efforts to improve what they're building. Under Toyoda, the company has reorganized to deliberately slow down product development, established a team of about 1,000 quality engineers, and greatly expanded its rapid quality response teams across the globe.

During the efforts to remake the company, Toyota has been hampered by a number natural disasters in Japan such as the 2011 Tsunami which damaged their factories, two earthquakes in 2016 that halted automotive operations across the country and a Typhoon in 2018 that caused Toyota to close 11 of its factories early, cancelling evening shifts.

In light of this, the fact that the 5th Gen still doesn't have LEDs and the 6th Gen remains little more than an idea should be less surprising. Right now, Toyota is more focused on regaining their traditional three pillars than they are on adding the hottest new features.

The Bronco's launch will almost certainly serve as a reminder to Toyota that because time ever marches forward and people's interests continuously change, the 4Runner cannot stay the same forever. The Bronco is an example of how Americans often often prefer innovation to iteration. We enjoy pushing the envelope to extend the limits of what's possible. But as the owners of the last body-on-frame mid-size SUV being made, we should also be among the first to appreciate Toyota's reluctance to rapidly change.

So are forum members divided because we argue about what's important? Just like other humans, we are thrilled by the innovation and creativity of the latest gadgets and newest fashions. Yet we still having the capacity to appreciate the detail and craftsmanship that goes into creating things like ancient Japanese swords. The fact that the processes and mindsets that go into making each are vastly different and rarely compatible often force us to choose which beliefs should have the priority. But I don't think that makes us fickle. We are not complacent creatures and can still want 35" tires from the factory while taking pride in a drivetrain meticulously built to last hundreds of thousands of miles.

Be that as it may, the Japanese are stellar at making excuses and Toyota has had a somewhat autonomous presence in the US that has helped develop vehicles solely for the US market that are different from those sold JDM and in Toyota's other international markets--in fact in just about every region where Toyota operates it has several unique models suited for the market, how many and how carefully engineered they are depends on how much market presence they have.

So it stands to bear that if they can engineer Tacos and Tundras and whatever the hell the FJ Cruiser was for the American market, whoever was at the helm of Toyota US should have been paying attention that an off-road oriented BOF SUV has ALWAYS been something important to a subset of Toyota customers, customers they either ignore or throw them a bone from time to time.

I would even argue that the 5th Gen 4Runner is enough of a unique model to say it was engineered solely for the US market.

I'm not asking them to change their bushido, I'm just saying if the 6th gen 4Runner or 300 Series sucks, I'm kind of done with them because their cars and pickups are shit.

sn_85 · 07-17-2020, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetboy

I've had all toyota vehicles for 15 years. My issue isn't so much the dated product, but the lack of any effort in any way to make it better. That isn't historically what Toyota was doing. The 4Runner has received a complete generational update every 7 years historically. Even the FJ40 had regular and meaningful updates to the engine, the transmission, the axles, the brakes, etc. The very long production run without updates is something new. This is not classic Toyota in any way. The closest thing I know if is the 7x series. Even the 7x series has regular updates and a more modern engine and transmission lineup. The 4Runner is little more a body update on a 2003 model and a downgrade in drivetrain. It's been 17 years to this point and looking like another 3-5 more before anything gets a refresh.

And Toyota is updated it's products in other markets. The Prado and Hilux are getting new and significantly more powerful engines this year. It's basically just our market that isn't getting updated even if they keep the same platform.

If it makes me fickle - so be it. I'm fickle. But to be fair - the very long production cycle isn't typical of Toyota. I can't think of any model that has been essentially unchanged for what's looking like 15 years.

Right on. It's not even about being fickle. It's the fact that Toyota has all the goods in one machine or another but doesn't want to put it all into one vehicle. They could have thrown in the 6spd AT into our trucks a long time ago. They could have given us the upgrade option of the 4.6L V8. What about better gear ratios? And I agree about the 120 and 150 platforms being very similar. The changes were more evolutionary than revolutionary between the two and you can argue in many ways it took a step back with the lack of a V8 option. The 4Runner has been same-same since 2003. So it'll be 20 years since any meaningful update if 2022/23 is the new MY. The Tundra has been pretty much the same since 2007 and the 2014 was more of a Gen 2.5. When you have 15-20 years between major upgrades cycles people have a right to be fickle.

And to be honest I don't we're asking all that much to be different in the 4Runner. All it needed was the 4.6L V8, 6spd, 4.10 gears and I'd be a happy camper. Again, it's all there. Toyota just doesn't want to give it to us.

thennen · 07-17-2020, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlock

As we knock this thread back and forth over what we think Toyota should be doing and what we want, I think it's important for us to consider their recent history.

Toyota is a conservative Japanese company that has long upheld the concept of "kaizen" or "continuous improvement" as one of it's most esteemed core values. As a result, the company has been more iterative than innovative and the result has been a long history of building reliable, low-defect, although perhaps less exciting, vehicles. Because of this Toyota had a long tradition of building their vehicles on the three pillars of reliability, durability and quality. This focus remained consistent until the 2000s when things changed significantly.

In 1995, Hiroshi Okuda was appointed the company’s new president. Aggressive in his desire to transform Toyota, Okuda created a “2005 vision” for the company that called for rapid growth in global market share over the next decade. In 2000, as part of this, Toyota initiated a radically new purchasing strategy called “Construction of Cost Competitiveness for the 21st Century.” This plan called for selecting suppliers on the basis of globally competitive target prices. The goal was to reduce costs by 30% over three years.

Takahiro Fujimoto, a well-regarded Japanese researcher on Toyota, reported that in the wake of their rapid growth, Toyota increasingly failed to properly evaluate and approve components designed by outside overseas suppliers.

In 2007, Consumer Reports noted that Toyota's overall vehicle quality, had declined. In 2008, they decided to no longer to give automatic “recommended” rating to all Toyota models based on their previous evaluations. David Champion, then senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, stated at the time that Toyota's vehicle quality had measurably decreased.

Here are some examples of what followed:

In 2004 in Japan and later in 2005 in the US, Toyota recalled pickups and SUVs for steering defects.
In 2009-10 Toyota faced an unprecedented crisis as it recalled 9 million US vehicles for "unintended acceleration," in what became the largest recall since that of Ford Motor Company in 1996.
In 2012, Toyota recalled 7.43 million vehicles worldwide to fix malfunctioning power window switches.
Throughout this period, Toyota also had a number of other recalls for issues such as faulty airbags, damaged trim panels, and even suspension components that were damaged during installation at the factory. They also brought back numerous vehicles for "warranty repairs" such as cracking dashboards on 4th Gen 4Runners.

All of this strained Toyota's stellar relationships with suppliers and significantly damaged people's perceptions about Toyota's quality. So in 2009, Akio Toyoda - grandson of the company's founder, took over as president with the goal of returning Toyota to it's roots. He has gone on record as stating that Okuda's plans for Toyota had worked so well that by 2003 sales were growing faster than the company could manage and that the all-out focus on growth had warped the “order of Toyota’s traditional priorities.”

Since then, Toyota may not have been the most exciting company, but they have made significant efforts to improve what they're building. Under Toyoda, the company has reorganized to deliberately slow down product development, established a team of about 1,000 quality engineers, and greatly expanded its rapid quality response teams across the globe.

During the efforts to remake the company, Toyota has been hampered by a number natural disasters in Japan such as the 2011 Tsunami which damaged their factories, two earthquakes in 2016 that halted automotive operations across the country and a Typhoon in 2018 that caused Toyota to close 11 of its factories early, cancelling evening shifts.

In light of this, the fact that the 5th Gen still doesn't have LEDs and the 6th Gen remains little more than an idea should be less surprising. Right now, Toyota is more focused on regaining their traditional three pillars than they are on adding the hottest new features.

The Bronco's launch will almost certainly serve as a reminder to Toyota that because time ever marches forward and people's interests continuously change, the 4Runner cannot stay the same forever. The Bronco is an example of how Americans often often prefer innovation to iteration. We enjoy pushing the envelope to extend the limits of what's possible. But as the owners of the last body-on-frame mid-size SUV being made, we should also be among the first to appreciate Toyota's reluctance to rapidly change.

So are forum members divided because we argue about what's important? Just like other humans, we are thrilled by the innovation and creativity of the latest gadgets and newest fashions. Yet we still having the capacity to appreciate the detail and craftsmanship that goes into creating things like ancient Japanese swords. The fact that the processes and mindsets that go into making each are vastly different and rarely compatible often force us to choose which beliefs should have the priority. But I don't think that makes us fickle. We are not complacent creatures and can still want 35" tires from the factory while taking pride in a drivetrain meticulously built to last hundreds of thousands of miles.

Well said, and thanks for the history. There was indeed that period of quality problems that made me say to myself, "C'mon, Toyota, you're smarter than this." Hopefully they're proceeding away from that, as you mentioned.

Also, I believe I've read in several places that Akio Toyoda is also focused on bringing excitement to Toyota's vehicles. Have you heard this? Seems that some examples may already be here. We now have a 300hp Camry, a 300hp Rav4, and a Supra that is already slated to receive improvements. I've heard rumors of a hot Corolla that may be headed our way, and rumors that the Land Cruiser may be receiving some serious upgrades. Perhaps Akio Toyoda has good things in mind for the 4Runner that we wouldn't guess.

blackened_offroad · 07-17-2020, 05:31 PM

this thread is really dumb. you guys must be super bored in lockdown.

RichinRidgewood · 07-17-2020, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LandCruiser

Be that as it may, the Japanese are stellar at making excuses and Toyota has had a somewhat autonomous presence in the US that has helped develop vehicles solely for the US market that are different from those sold JDM and in Toyota's other international markets--in fact in just about every region where Toyota operates it has several unique models suited for the market, how many and how carefully engineered they are depends on how much market presence they have.

So it stands to bear that if they can engineer Tacos and Tundras and whatever the hell the FJ Cruiser was for the American market, whoever was at the helm of Toyota US should have been paying attention that an off-road oriented BOF SUV has ALWAYS been something important to a subset of Toyota customers, customers they either ignore or throw them a bone from time to time.

I would even argue that the 5th Gen 4Runner is enough of a unique model to say it was engineered solely for the US market.

I'm not asking them to change their bushido, I'm just saying if the 6th gen 4Runner or 300 Series sucks, I'm kind of done with them because their cars and pickups are shit.

“As of 2014, the 4Runner is sold in the United States, Bolivia, Canada, Central America, Bahamas, Ecuador, Peru, Chile and Venezuela” wiki

IMHO this information is a very important. Unless they plan market the new 4R in other locations I’m seeing bad fuel, low tech engines, ability to haul cargo over bad “roads” not mall crawler, frat boy, soccer mom crap like you see in Broncos and Jeeps.

83Mule · 07-17-2020, 07:41 PM

I have a Rubi and a 4Runner as well as the Mule......If I had to get in one of them and set the cruise, aim it at the Moon and get there or Die! I would take the Mule, 4Runner then Rubicon................

thennen · 07-17-2020, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 83Mule

I have a Rubi and a 4Runner as well as the Mule......If I had to get in one of them and set the cruise, aim it at the Moon and get there or Die! I would take the Mule, 4Runner then Rubicon................

Of course, if you got there you’d die, too ;-)

tundradan · 07-17-2020, 10:40 PM

Fun read!

Harlock · 07-18-2020, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thennen

Well said, and thanks for the history. There was indeed that period of quality problems that made me say to myself, "C'mon, Toyota, you're smarter than this." Hopefully they're proceeding away from that, as you mentioned.

Also, I believe I've read in several places that Akio Toyoda is also focused on bringing excitement to Toyota's vehicles. Have you heard this? Seems that some examples may already be here. We now have a 300hp Camry, a 300hp Rav4, and a Supra that is already slated to receive improvements. I've heard rumors of a hot Corolla that may be headed our way, and rumors that the Land Cruiser may be receiving some serious upgrades. Perhaps Akio Toyoda has good things in mind for the 4Runner that we wouldn't guess.

Yes, it's true that when Akio Toyoda took over he issued a companywide decree for "no more boring cars." And since that time, he's given designers more power in the production process. Several major Toyota designers have verified this in media interviews as they've discussed changes in the process of creating those cars and others like the 7th Gen Camry.

Toyota's current vehicle-development strategy elevates a new "product chief designer" to work alongside the chief engineer as equal partners in creating vehicles. This was previously unheard of at Toyota.

Some on the forum have expressed frustration at Toyota's seeming lack of change as they've put their house in order. But vehicle development is a many year process and only recently are we beginning to see the fruits of Toyoda's directives. Like you, I too hope this bodes well for tomorrow's 4Runner. What's especially interesting is that Toyota and Mazda jointly run a plant in Alabama and Toyota had previously announced they would build Corollas there. But Toyota just announced a couple of weeks ago they will be building a "new, yet-to-be-announced SUV" at the location instead. Could this be the FT-4X? If so, Toyota may be responding to the Bronco sooner than later.

itr1275 · 07-18-2020, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harlock

In 2007, Consumer Reports noted that Toyota's overall vehicle quality, had declined. In 2008, they decided to no longer to give automatic “recommended” rating to all Toyota models based on their previous evaluations. David Champion, then senior director of Consumer Reports’ Auto Test Center, stated at the time that Toyota's vehicle quality had measurably decreased.

Well thought out write up and I agree. The reliability ratings of all the cars has evened out quite a bit, dare I even say it's a bit more fair? I find it also depends on who writes the articles, or more like who pays the bills.

This article puts Chevy, Buick, Mini and even Dodge ahead of lots of Japanese cars.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...t-last-forever

1) 2020 Toyota Corolla
2) 2019 Mini Cooper
3) 2019 Mini Cooper Clubman
4) 2019 Buick LaCrosse
5) 2020 Nissan Versa
6) 2019 Chevrolet Cruze
7) 2019 Toyota Prius c
8) 2020 Buick Regal
9) 2020 Toyota Camry
10) 2020 Kia Forte
11) 2019 Kia Cadenza
12) 2020 Toyota Prius
13) 2020 Chevrolet Impala
14) 2020 Hyundai Elantra
15) 2020 Dodge Challenger
16) 2019 Toyota Yaris
17) 2019 Kia Rio
18) 2020 Toyota Prius Prime

Notably not mentioned Honda, Subaru, Ford, VW, Audi, BMW nor Tesla? Come on a freaking the ultimate rental car - Chevy Impala and Dodge anything? Seriously. OK I have some bias.

Here they ranked the 4runner 2nd from last. The quote the body on frame as an issue, but it's a reliability report?
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/...-reliable-suvs

In our ranking of midsize SUVs, however, the trade-offs for its off-road prowess become apparent, leading to a spot near the bottom of the list. Its truck-like, body-on-frame construction provides a ride that doesn't have the refinement of many rivals. That same construction makes the 4Runner less fuel efficient than many competitors.

I like my T4R, but I'm not a Toyota die hard. They have their good points and places to improve. But the market is changing and they will do their best to adapt. Will they do it fast enough with out ruining a good thing?

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