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Old 08-11-2020, 12:34 PM #16
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Originally Posted by 08TxRunner View Post
Then you really don't understand what the OEM O2 sensors are capable of reporting - which is really nothing more than a narrow band light show. And the indicated A/F ratio at cruise has no meaning whatsoever. You're throwing boost at a pedestrian engine with hypereutectic pistons and sintered iron rods (both of which are bad). Knowing A/F ratio in boost as you approach max rpm, or while under heavy load, is critical to not breaking off a ring land or worse.
Are you aware of any engine failures? Just curious.

It kinda sounds like we're searching for data on a problem that doesn't exist. If we were seeing engine issues, then it would be time to investigate. It sure seems like either they're not running lean, or the engine is capable of handling the lean condition.
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:46 PM #17
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Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
Are you aware of any engine failures? Just curious.

It kinda sounds like we're searching for data on a problem that doesn't exist. If we were seeing engine issues, then it would be time to investigate. It sure seems like either they're not running lean, or the engine is capable of handling the lean condition.
The only time I've seen engine failures was when Bully Dog stepped in with their tune and made a few 1GRs sound like popcorn.
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Old 08-11-2020, 01:26 PM #18
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Originally Posted by Sundy View Post
someone boosts ;) This makes me think back to the highschool days and my DSM (always breaking haha)

Wideband 02 sensors are a game changer for tuning/logging/tracking info - it was huge to have when I converted to running E-85 for the higher octane eq. rating.
I've had two Procharged Fox Mustangs, and currently have a highly modded GT500 and highly modded centrifugally blown ski that I race. I do have just a tad of knowledge on this issue.
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Old 08-11-2020, 01:29 PM #19
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Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
Are you aware of any engine failures? Just curious.

It kinda sounds like we're searching for data on a problem that doesn't exist. If we were seeing engine issues, then it would be time to investigate. It sure seems like either they're not running lean, or the engine is capable of handling the lean condition.
That's not a good way to approach a supercharged engine - to wait for a failure before you take precautionary steps. From personal experience my Innovate LC2 saved the engine in my GT500 when one of the two pumps failed. It showed as excessively lean A/F readings at only 4500 rpm. I found the pump issue and corrected it. A rebuild of this engine is in excess of $15K not including R&R.

But hey I'm just offering some advice.
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Old 08-11-2020, 02:06 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 08TxRunner View Post
That's not a good way to approach a supercharged engine - to wait for a failure before you take precautionary steps. From personal experience my Innovate LC2 saved the engine in my GT500 when one of the two pumps failed. It showed as excessively lean A/F readings at only 4500 rpm. I found the pump issue and corrected it. A rebuild of this engine is in excess of $15K not including R&R.

But hey I'm just offering some advice.
I mean, it's one way to go, but it's a pretty damn expensive way to bench test things.

Replacing the stock NB sensor with that thing was such a pain in the ass in my old LSJ, but it was damn sure invaluable...
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Old 08-11-2020, 02:12 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
Are you aware of any engine failures? Just curious.

It kinda sounds like we're searching for data on a problem that doesn't exist. If we were seeing engine issues, then it would be time to investigate. It sure seems like either they're not running lean, or the engine is capable of handling the lean condition.
I'd respectfully suggest it's a case of searching for data to know if a problem potentially exists or not, which is how the question was phrased.

Sure, maybe this engine can run at a 13.7 AFR on 93 octane at x elevation, but if I'm running an aftermarket blower on a new car, I'd certainly prefer to have that information when I get stuck in BFE and have to put 87 in to get home so I'm damn sure aware that babying the throttle is not just recommended, but essential to not knock my way to a new engine.

Then again I'm a data nerd and not having that info would make me nervous every time I hit high RPMs...
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Old 08-11-2020, 02:17 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Sp00ner View Post
I mean, it's one way to go, but it's a pretty damn expensive way to bench test things.

Replacing the stock NB sensor with that thing was such a pain in the ass in my old LSJ, but it was damn sure invaluable...
Shoot, all you need is a quick trip to the muffler shop to install the bung pre-cat, then wire up power/ground. Plug the LC2 into the sensor and off you go. Even the datalogging software is free from Innovate.
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Old 08-11-2020, 02:20 PM #23
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Originally Posted by 08TxRunner View Post
Shoot, all you need is a quick trip to the muffler shop to install the bung pre-cat, then wire up power/ground. Plug the LC2 into the sensor and off you go. Even the datalogging software is free from Innovate.
Yea, but younger stubborn me insisted on replacing the stock one and then tuning the LC2 to give the right NB output, you can guess which way I'd go if I were doing it again I suspect...
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:35 PM #24
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Yea you guys are way above my head on this. But being a Friggin Idiot that's no surprise. Every vehicle I've had up to the 4Runner has been NA, so every step of adding the SC has been a learning experience. I assumed that URD had done significant testing with their kit and shipped tune prior to putting it up for sale and would not put themselves into a liability/reputation hole by creating something that would pose significant risk to end user engines.
I have had to sit in the truck with the laptop while on the phone with tech support on the line for the Ucon-EMS, and was overwhelmed with the array of different parameters available to tweak. I made sure not to delete that program from the laptop, but never got back around to taking a harder look at the program.
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:10 PM #25
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Originally Posted by Friggin Idiot View Post
Yea you guys are way above my head on this. But being a Friggin Idiot that's no surprise. Every vehicle I've had up to the 4Runner has been NA, so every step of adding the SC has been a learning experience. I assumed that URD had done significant testing with their kit and shipped tune prior to putting it up for sale and would not put themselves into a liability/reputation hole by creating something that would pose significant risk to end user engines.
I have had to sit in the truck with the laptop while on the phone with tech support on the line for the Ucon-EMS, and was overwhelmed with the array of different parameters available to tweak. I made sure not to delete that program from the laptop, but never got back around to taking a harder look at the program.

I agree with what everyone is saying. Maybe I’m leaning too much on the tune from Magnuson. The tune must be ok if people aren’t blowing motors up. It would be very nice to see my AFR. It would take some worries away. This is my first supercharged experience and I’m always up for learning something new.


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Old 08-11-2020, 09:52 PM #26
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Originally Posted by Friggin Idiot View Post
Yea you guys are way above my head on this. But being a Friggin Idiot that's no surprise. Every vehicle I've had up to the 4Runner has been NA, so every step of adding the SC has been a learning experience. I assumed that URD had done significant testing with their kit and shipped tune prior to putting it up for sale and would not put themselves into a liability/reputation hole by creating something that would pose significant risk to end user engines.
I have had to sit in the truck with the laptop while on the phone with tech support on the line for the Ucon-EMS, and was overwhelmed with the array of different parameters available to tweak. I made sure not to delete that program from the laptop, but never got back around to taking a harder look at the program.
Chances are you're right, but you'd be shocked at how some half assed tunes can get out into the wild due to someone's oversight or mistake.

At the end of the day, they can only develop a tune based on the development mule(s) that they had at the time. There's a 97-99% chance, maybe higher, that their tune is going to be just fine on your ride in all conditions. As long as you dont deviate from the hardware they tested with, nothing goes wrong with your fuel pump (recall) or injectors, you live at a 'normal' altitude and temperature, can find the right octane and dont get too much or too little ethanol in your mix etc. (With boost the right ethanol mix is MOAR!) Even then you have a knock sensor that will usually save your ass either way.

The point that got me wondering/concerned though, was one company apparently using a 7th injector and one not. That tells me that someone was seeing AFRs leaning out and/or pushing injector duty cycles past 100% or dangerously close in certain conditions. They certainly didn't add that complexity and some extra cost for no reason, and you dont usually see massive overhead on stock fuel injectors since it impacts the ability to sip fuel while idling smoothly. I had to use Mustang Cobra injectors for my 2.0L motor to run E85, it was a ***** to get them to open for a short enough period to get it to not stumble at idle.
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:58 PM #27
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Originally Posted by TrailRunnin14 View Post
I agree with what everyone is saying. Maybe I’m leaning too much on the tune from Magnuson. The tune must be ok if people aren’t blowing motors up. It would be very nice to see my AFR. It would take some worries away. This is my first supercharged experience and I’m always up for learning something new.


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It might come from experiencing what happens when you give car people access to an ECM along with boost, it's... addictive... and a smaller blower pulley is always just a phone call away, and leaning it out just a bit more will get you just a bit more top end, and if I advance the timing just another degree.... shit I just blew a hole in my piston...
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:50 PM #28
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Originally Posted by Sp00ner View Post
It might come from experiencing what happens when you give car people access to an ECM along with boost, it's... addictive... and a smaller blower pulley is always just a phone call away, and leaning it out just a bit more will get you just a bit more top end, and if I advance the timing just another degree.... shit I just blew a hole in my piston...

Hey I appreciate the wisdom!


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Old 08-11-2020, 10:52 PM #29
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Originally Posted by Sp00ner View Post
Chances are you're right, but you'd be shocked at how some half assed tunes can get out into the wild due to someone's oversight or mistake.

At the end of the day, they can only develop a tune based on the development mule(s) that they had at the time. There's a 97-99% chance, maybe higher, that their tune is going to be just fine on your ride in all conditions. As long as you dont deviate from the hardware they tested with, nothing goes wrong with your fuel pump (recall) or injectors, you live at a 'normal' altitude and temperature, can find the right octane and dont get too much or too little ethanol in your mix etc. (With boost the right ethanol mix is MOAR!) Even then you have a knock sensor that will usually save your ass either way.

The point that got me wondering/concerned though, was one company apparently using a 7th injector and one not. That tells me that someone was seeing AFRs leaning out and/or pushing injector duty cycles past 100% or dangerously close in certain conditions. They certainly didn't add that complexity and some extra cost for no reason, and you dont usually see massive overhead on stock fuel injectors since it impacts the ability to sip fuel while idling smoothly. I had to use Mustang Cobra injectors for my 2.0L motor to run E85, it was a ***** to get them to open for a short enough period to get it to not stumble at idle.

Yes and I guess that’s part of my concern. I’ve got a 2014 and it’s going in next week for a fuel pump recall. Just wondering if the replacement pump has the same flow as the pump it’s replacing.


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Old 08-11-2020, 11:42 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 08TxRunner View Post
That's not a good way to approach a supercharged engine - to wait for a failure before you take precautionary steps. From personal experience my Innovate LC2 saved the engine in my GT500 when one of the two pumps failed. It showed as excessively lean A/F readings at only 4500 rpm. I found the pump issue and corrected it. A rebuild of this engine is in excess of $15K not including R&R.

But hey I'm just offering some advice.
I didn't question the tune in my stock engine. The tune is equally important. I rely on empirical data. Lots of engines, extremely few failed engines is enough for me. It's better than arm chair experts in my experience. These aren't custom tunes. These are professional tunes from professional supercharger experts on an engine designed for boost. And Magnuson has been running them for a long time. I'd trust them unless there's a reason not to. If there's any indication that the tune isn't right, then I'd be more inclined to investigate.

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