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Old 09-11-2020, 01:04 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajun_TRD View Post
You can order 4.30s, Manual TRD offroad tacomas come with them and have elockers
The 16+ tacomas use an 8.9" rear diff - and unfortunately they also have drum brake rear axles. So you could swap the full axle and I think they're the same width and for sure have matching bolt patterns, but then you get the drum brakes. The 8.9 *I think* has 32 spline axles, so you can't just mix and match the diff with the 8.2 shafts. I don't know if the spider gears are interchangeable to make it work or if you'd need custom parts made.

If you wanted to use an 8.9" (usually called an 8.75 for some reason - it actually measures 8.9 by most sources) - the foreign market Fortuner rear axle is disc brake, uses the 8.9, and comes in a bunch of ratios including 4.10 and 4.30 IIRC. So that would be the best place to start IMO if you wanted 4.30 rear diff. And I think most of the ratios are available with an e-locker option directly from Toyota. The new elockers are magnetic internal lockers like the eaton design.

A few places make custom housings for Land Cruiser 9.5 differentials. The older 9.5's are probably weaker than the current 8.2 we have. The internal changes to the 8.2 are significant - the ring gear added more bolts to the carrier, but mostly the pinion got a lot bigger and stronger with much larger bearings. The 8.2 pinion is bigger in diameter at the bearings than a Dana 60.

The new LC9.5s are also IIRC 32 spline - and they received similar upgrades to what the 8.2 got as compared to the old 8" rear diff. So if you use newer model LC9.5 diff - it's very strong. You'd need some sort of custom shafts to use the 32 spline newer setup with 6 bolt outers. I don't know what it would take to do that. Probably just a matter of calling a shaft manufacturer and giving them the specs. But - I'm pretty sure it's going to cost a lot more than a re-gear of the 8.2.

I also assume, but have not personally seen one apart, that the Tacoma 8.9 is equally robust internally.

If you wanted a seriously beefy upgrade to run 37's or 40's without any fear of breaking parts - I'd skip the custom shafts and such and just swap the front and rear from a LC200. Then you'll have matching 5 lug wheel patterns, similar track width, etc. And the LC200 setups are very strong. The front upgrade to the bigger 8.9ish clamshell and the rear update would make for a pretty great drive train. - But then if you go down that road - why not just buy a lC200 and get the big v8 and probably save money overall? It's a better platform to run big tires top to bottom.
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Old 09-11-2020, 01:11 PM #17
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Originally Posted by Flahart View Post
I put 4.10's in my GX on 34's but that's easy since it's a 8" ring gear and with some case mods you can install a Tacoma elocker. Front gears are available for the 8" clam shell, which is the same or similar to the 5th gen.

Would it be easier to swap a 8" rear diff in from a older FJC or 4th gen to get the 4.10 ratio your looking for? Yes it's a "weaker" diff but for the mostly pavement pounders a non issue. And you get some rpm back with a 33ish tall tire.

My 5th gen on 34's isn't a rocket ship but IMO would benefit greatly from 4.88's, esp since it's going up to 35x10.5's soon.
Although a lot of people might get away with the 8" - they're a common failure point on the FJ Cruiser. And they're pretty light duty for the so many of the 5th gens that are 5500+ lbs.

For some visual comparison - here's an 8.2 pinion vs an 8" pinion side by side. And then some pics of the primary pinion support bearing too. You can see why the 8.2 holds up so much better.





Ring gears are pretty close in size. 8.2 top, 8" bottom. Ratios are different - that's why the thickness is different on them.

Last edited by Jetboy; 09-11-2020 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 09-11-2020, 03:22 PM #18
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When I was running 285/70's on stock gears, I noticed that on pretty much every hill I was downshifting more often than I would expect. Moved to 285/75's and 4.56's and the wandering stopped - I never really drove much over 70mph but it felt fantastic 99% of the time, almost back to a stock feel. I recently moved to 35x11.5's and I am back to downshifting more frequently than I'd like on smallish hills. I will likely move to 4.88's eventually as a result.
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Old 09-11-2020, 09:22 PM #19
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I have a 03 TRD Tacoma 4.10 gear truck running 4Runner Trd offroad wheel on 285/70/17, it still felt quite driveable on the inclines. I always wanted 4.30s thou with 34s. I want to see this proof of concept work, I'm happy with 33s now but you only live once. YOLO
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Old 09-11-2020, 09:57 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
Although a lot of people might get away with the 8" - they're a common failure point on the FJ Cruiser. And they're pretty light duty for the so many of the 5th gens that are 5500+ lbs.

For some visual comparison - here's an 8.2 pinion vs an 8" pinion side by side. And then some pics of the primary pinion support bearing too. You can see why the 8.2 holds up so much better.





Ring gears are pretty close in size. 8.2 top, 8" bottom. Ratios are different - that's why the thickness is different on them.
Pics didn't come through
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Old 09-14-2020, 12:14 PM #21
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Pics didn't come through
Apparently there's some issues with the hosting that I was linking to. Let's try this:
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Potential 4.10 Gearing Option-20190308_112921-1024x768-jpg  Potential 4.10 Gearing Option-20190308_113032-1024x768-jpg  Potential 4.10 Gearing Option-20190408_205752-768x1024-jpg 
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Old 09-14-2020, 01:38 PM #22
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Originally Posted by Unretired View Post
I've been trying to get smarter on gearing, but I'm not sure I can see the value in 4.10.
I agree it should have been the stock gearing.
But no one modding for off road would want something so low.
As soon as you add bigger tires, weight, all you are getting is back to stock - stressing highway fuel economy, not more performance/power.
4.10 makes sense if you stay stock, but who "stays stock" and re-gears.

I'm not sold on the RPMs with 4.56 yet, but I'm still running 265 for now.
I'm also hesitant to do a BMC (I have issues messing with safety features).
I may end up doing nothing, but I don't see the attraction to go "only" to 4.10.
It's a 10% difference in gearing. It's roughly the same effect (in reverse) as going from a 32" tire to a 35" tire. Some people don't think a 35" tire would be a meaningful enough difference to regear. Some do. This is mathematically a near identical change. I suppose it just depends on what you're looking for. Going to 4.56 is equivalent to going to about 39's. For me - gearing for 39's so I can run 33's isn't quite what I'm looking for. Gearing for 35's, but running 33" tires seems more in-line with what I use it for. YMMV.

Just for reference as a comparison.

Going from 32" tires to 35" tires, the difference in effective gearing is 9.3% (going from 31.6 tire height to 34.5 is 9.2%)
Going from 32" tires to 40" tires is 25%

re-gearing from 3.73 to 4.56 is 22.5%
3.73-4.10 is 9.9%

For a stock tacoma with 4.10 to 4.56 is 11.2%
For a stock 3rd gen 4Runner or Tundra with 4.30 diffs, going to 4.56 is 6%, going from those to 4.88 is 13.4% and is pretty common. Going all the way to 5.29 is about 23%. So going from 3.73 to 4.56 is roughly the same change as 5.29's in a 3rd gen. Is that too low? It just depends on what you're wanting to do with it. I have 5.29 diffs in my FJ40 and they're just right IMO for 39" tires.

Edit: also FWIW - if we had a 6 or 8 speed transmission, the deeper gearing would be far less of an issue. The lack of a lower OD ratio resulted in pretty low MPG on the highway. What it feels like and what is efficient are often two different things. The transmission should downshift on hills. If it doesn't - the gearing probably isn't right for cruising on flat ground. What isn't ideal is running down in 3rd gear frequently. Or not being able to maintain 5th gear on flat ground at highway speeds. Too low of gears are also often slower and less efficient even when they feel faster. as an example - (skip to the end where they remove all the weight from the low gear'd one and it's still slower than the stock gearing)


Last edited by Jetboy; 09-14-2020 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 09-16-2020, 10:11 AM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
It's a 10% difference in gearing. It's roughly the same effect (in reverse) as going from a 32" tire to a 35" tire. Some people don't think a 35" tire would be a meaningful enough difference to regear. Some do. This is mathematically a near identical change. I suppose it just depends on what you're looking for. Going to 4.56 is equivalent to going to about 39's. For me - gearing for 39's so I can run 33's isn't quite what I'm looking for. Gearing for 35's, but running 33" tires seems more in-line with what I use it for. YMMV.
I'm almost with you - here is simple chart that sums up what is holding me up.



Maybe this oversimplifies it or maybe you don't even agree with the chart (stolen from tiresize.com/gear-ratio-calculator/).
But this amongst other things is what convinced me we should have been around 4.11 stock.
And re-gearing towards power/performance or increased tire size you'd walk up to 4.27 or maybe 4.56.
I think I'd want to keep it under 3000 RPM at 65, so I'm hesitant to embrace 4.56.

I recognize these aren't Toyota numbers and I don't know all the pinion/tooth details, but you briefly mentioned a 4.30 option.
It seems that would be the perfect re-gear.
You gain power/performance, but don't cross too far into the high RPM zone for those of us who want to drive 80mph.

4.10 with stock (but I can't imagine re-gearing yet keeping 265)
4.30 with 33
4.56+ if you go big or can embrace the RPMs
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Old 09-16-2020, 11:50 AM #24
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FWIW - that gear ratio chart doesn't really have much application in modern vehicles. It's based on a 1:1 drive ratio - I don't think any current vehicles from any manufacturer still have a 1:1 ratio top gear. But it is valuable in the sense that it shows relative changes in tire and gearing and how they compare. I just wouldn't put much or any value on the colors or the representation of how they translate to performance. Other than transmissions, it also doesn't necessarily match our engine's attributes. I have no idea what engine they were using, but I'd guess an older small block chevy.

I think the 1GR has a pretty big efficiency cliff at higher rpms. But I don't know exactly what a BSFC map looks like. Just from my experience - I had a big drop in mpg going to 4.56 diffs with 33/34" tires (I have a set of both sizes that I alternate between). 2 or 3 mpg difference to me suggests that the engine is working harder to do the same thing with the 4.56 diffs. Part of my logic here is that if I'm going to accept 13 or 14mpg - I'd probably rather have a LC200 that has 400hp and gets 13mpg. So I went back to 3.73 and started planning on swapping around to a different platform. It's mostly an issue now of the market being really tight for LC200's and haven't found a decent deal on one. And I'm kinda waiting to see what the new LC300 is and/or the new Tundra hybrid.

As a comparison I rented a Ram 1500 with the 5.7 hemi for 2 weeks. Drove 2700 miles, of which around 1500 were towing a 24' travel trailer. I averaged almost 18mpg for the total trip. Unloaded I was getting 20+ mpg. Even towing that big trailer I got better mpg than I do towing my little teardrop with the 4Runner. And it has the same 33" tires I have on my 4Runner.

I was kinda hoping 4.10 might be a nice fit between the too high 3.73 and the too low 4.56 ratios. If the only tire options were 32 or 39" tires, that would seem like a huge gap. And the same relative difference is what we have now for gearing. Something in the middle would be a good alternative IMO.

And as a bonus - if anyone wants to compare what 4.10 gears feel like - you could just go test drive a new 4Runner. It should be really similar in net gearing to 34" tires with 4.10 gears. Almost exactly the same highway rpms.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:12 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetboy View Post
FWIW - that gear ratio chart doesn't really have much application in modern vehicles. It's based on a 1:1 drive ratio - I don't think any current vehicles from any manufacturer still have a 1:1 ratio top gear. But it is valuable in the sense that it shows relative changes in tire and gearing and how they compare. I just wouldn't put much or any value on the colors or the representation of how they translate to performance. Other than transmissions, it also doesn't necessarily match our engine's attributes. I have no idea what engine they were using, but I'd guess an older small block chevy.

I think the 1GR has a pretty big efficiency cliff at higher rpms. But I don't know exactly what a BSFC map looks like.

And as a bonus - if anyone wants to compare what 4.10 gears feel like - you could just go test drive a new 4Runner. It should be really similar in net gearing to 34" tires with 4.10 gears. Almost exactly the same highway rpms.
I was tracking that most sites/charts were using 1:1 as their baseline.
I wasn't sure why other than easy math-comparison.
I've been driving around in S4 to get the 1:1 feel.
It's been okay until you get a 3rd gear downshift on a big hill at speed.

I guess the BSFC is what is missing - what is the target?
And do you want max efficiency or an acceptable % with increased performance?
The colored blocks were pretty representative to my unscientific "feel and sound" - that's my <3000 RPM.
I tried to track mpg, but my driving is just too variable.

I'm thinking your 4.10 target is a little too low.
Only gets back to stock set up - so probably overly efficient-centric.
Certainly beats 3.73, but if you are going to do it, I'm thinking do what should have been done from the beginning.

So...
I think you need to spend your time & money testing 4.30 for us and getting a company to build and warranty them.
If you want to do both 4.10 and 4.30 that would be great too.
Just let us know where to send our $ once it's all worked out.
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Old 09-17-2020, 10:24 AM #26
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4.30 would be a good ratio for 34" and up tire size. It would be more expensive though. There are heeps of 4.10 front OEM diffs out there from tacomas that you can find in salvage yards and could swap in easily and cheaply. I can usually buy a complete OEM front clamshell for $250. The 4.30 front 8" clamshell exists as do aftermarket thick ring gears, but more expensive.
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Old 09-17-2020, 11:32 AM #27
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Quote:
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4.30 would be a good ratio for 34" and up tire size. It would be more expensive though. There are heeps of 4.10 front OEM diffs out there from tacomas that you can find in salvage yards and could swap in easily and cheaply. I can usually buy a complete OEM front clamshell for $250. The 4.30 front 8" clamshell exists as do aftermarket thick ring gears, but more expensive.
I got lost in my own "ideal" thoughts...I re-read your original post and I get it now.
- front: Tacoma OEM 4.10 gears
- rear: vendor to carry them with full service behind it instead if they were more like $350/set

Familiar 4.10 with a lower parts cost does make sense.
Particularly since I lack the experience, space, and patience to do this myself and will have to hire a pro.
And bonus $ - add a locker since I have a SR5
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Old 08-18-2021, 12:39 PM #28
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just wondering if there was any luck with this? Probably not, but doesn't hurt to ask
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Old 08-18-2021, 01:19 PM #29
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2021nightshade4x4 is just really nice 2021nightshade4x4 is just really nice 2021nightshade4x4 is just really nice 2021nightshade4x4 is just really nice 2021nightshade4x4 is just really nice
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Originally Posted by Unretired View Post
I was tracking that most sites/charts were using 1:1 as their baseline.
I wasn't sure why other than easy math-comparison.
I've been driving around in S4 to get the 1:1 feel.
It's been okay until you get a 3rd gear downshift on a big hill at speed.

I guess the BSFC is what is missing - what is the target?
And do you want max efficiency or an acceptable % with increased performance?
The colored blocks were pretty representative to my unscientific "feel and sound" - that's my <3000 RPM.
I tried to track mpg, but my driving is just too variable.

I'm thinking your 4.10 target is a little too low.
Only gets back to stock set up - so probably overly efficient-centric.
Certainly beats 3.73, but if you are going to do it, I'm thinking do what should have been done from the beginning.

So...
I think you need to spend your time & money testing 4.30 for us and getting a company to build and warranty them.
If you want to do both 4.10 and 4.30 that would be great too.
Just let us know where to send our $ once it's all worked out.

“I’ve been driving around in S4 to get the 1:1 feel.”

I love when people really get down into the nitty gritty of the driving experience (sometimes even, but not necessarily the technical side of things, too).

Some drivers put serious time into designing their vehicle and making it their own. Maybe you have “THAT hill” on your commute where the 4Runner downshifts, seemingly unnecessarily.

Take control, increase your ratios. The supercharger for 2020+ model years doesn’t have a timeline for release. Toyota will not be putting a V8 in the 4Runner any time soon. The only thing that I foresee happening is a turbo 4 and a 9 speed made by ZF Potential 4.10 Gearing Option

Since the ECM on these is locked down, we only have control over the physical things not part of the feedback loop reporting to the system. Gear sizing is one of those few things. Heck I’ve seen posts from people installing 4.56 that wish they did 4.88.

Go all the way! LOL


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Old 08-18-2021, 02:59 PM #30
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just wondering if there was any luck with this? Probably not, but doesn't hurt to ask
I'll send you a PM later when I have a little more time. The short answer is that I didn't want to buy 200 sets. But they'll make em for anyone who wants to put in a minimum order. There's no meaningful tooling fees or design costs since the forgings for existing ratios are useable. They confirmed that. It's all automated from there. Software generates the tool paths. Just the minimum order to do a production run.
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