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Old 12-26-2020, 02:24 PM #1
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Trying to understand Lifts....

I have a 2018 runner I just loves. It is my daily driver, and I do tend to drive it a LOT for work. 20K a year or more. My job requires I keep 2-300 lbs of gear loaded in the back at ALL TIMES... so while I do not have a big massive titanic steel bumper, I do carry some extra weight...

Because I live in Utah and Moab is only 2 hours away, I am required by law to take it wheeling down there 2-3 times a year. I do basic and moderate trails (Like White Rim or Gemini Bridges), not over-the-top like Top of the World or Hells Back and Revenge.... and I am good with that level of wheeling.

So right now I have KO2s and a full STEEL skid on it. Also a Gobi stealth. SO I am a moderate (and I am even willing to say Im a newb... I have a LOT to learn!)

I want to do a lift now. I THINK I want a 2-3" lift.... I figure with that AND full skids, I should be 100% for the trails I do.

I just dont know where to go. I am thinking like an OME... but do I want normal, medium or heavy? Or maybe an Icon Level 2? I would love to do King but I dont have the scratch and I feel that may be overkill. Or maybe something else? I dont want to get too expensive, and it IS a daily driver.... so I dont want to go too crazy.

So with all the gear I carry daily, and my use case, where do you think I should go? What should I get?

Also, I DO think I want an UCA.... I may get bigger tires, and I think having the adjustability of a SPC UCA is a good thing to have.... is this good idea, or have I hit the heights of Dunning-Krugger?

GO ahead, be merciless... call me a newb and an idiot, but help me find what I need for my use please!

Dave
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Old 12-26-2020, 02:35 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carfac View Post
I have a 2018 runner I just loves. It is my daily driver, and I do tend to drive it a LOT for work. 20K a year or more. My job requires I keep 2-300 lbs of gear loaded in the back at ALL TIMES... so while I do not have a big massive titanic steel bumper, I do carry some extra weight...

Because I live in Utah and Moab is only 2 hours away, I am required by law to take it wheeling down there 2-3 times a year. I do basic and moderate trails (Like White Rim or Gemini Bridges), not over-the-top like Top of the World or Hells Back and Revenge.... and I am good with that level of wheeling.

So right now I have KO2s and a full STEEL skid on it. Also a Gobi stealth. SO I am a moderate (and I am even willing to say Im a newb... I have a LOT to learn!)

I want to do a lift now. I THINK I want a 2-3" lift.... I figure with that AND full skids, I should be 100% for the trails I do.

I just dont know where to go. I am thinking like an OME... but do I want normal, medium or heavy? Or maybe an Icon Level 2? I would love to do King but I dont have the scratch and I feel that may be overkill. Or maybe something else? I dont want to get too expensive, and it IS a daily driver.... so I dont want to go too crazy.

So with all the gear I carry daily, and my use case, where do you think I should go? What should I get?

Also, I DO think I want an UCA.... I may get bigger tires, and I think having the adjustability of a SPC UCA is a good thing to have.... is this good idea, or have I hit the heights of Dunning-Krugger?

GO ahead, be merciless... call me a newb and an idiot, but help me find what I need for my use please!

Dave
What size of tire do you currently run and are you planning to change that once you get your lift?

Personally, if you are happy with the trails you currently run and do not plan to put on larger tires I wouldn't bother with the lift for the amount of driving you do. I would consider a set of sliders to give you a bit more confidence if you feel that would be helpful.

I would do the smallest lift to clear the tires you want and stay away from rebuildable shocks with that amount of mileage per year.
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Old 12-26-2020, 02:47 PM #3
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What size of tire do you currently run and are you planning to change that once you get your lift?

Personally, if you are happy with the trails you currently run and do not plan to put on larger tires I wouldn't bother with the lift for the amount of driving you do. I would consider a set of sliders to give you a bit more confidence if you feel that would be helpful.

I would do the smallest lift to clear the tires you want and stay away from rebuildable shocks with that amount of mileage per year.
Thanks Engineer!

My KO2s are 265/70 17

I have no desire for bigger, unless I need bigger and then Im not opposed to them.... but I am not chomping at the bit for 33" and I REALLY know less about tires than I do about lifts!

Really I just want to feel safe out on the trails, and not worry about wrecking.... or bottoming out.

FWIW, I was down to shoot the monolith in Nov- you know that weird thing that showed up in the Utah desert.... anyway, I had little problems getting in there, but I DID scrape bottom a couple times. I was just thinking 2 inches more might be sorta cool and not effect much....

If you'd like to see the monolith images, happy to show you! I DID take an ape outfit so I could get apes around the monolith shots!

Last edited by carfac; 12-26-2020 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 12-26-2020, 02:54 PM #4
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You are not an idiot or newb! You are asking intelligent questions.

First, understand that ANY lift, front and/or rear, will NOT increase the clearance below the rear differential. The only way to do that is bigger tires/wheels. But keep in mind that the higher you go, the more unstable your on road drive will be.

It depends on how much you want to spend, and how extreme you want to go in your off road adventures. I also live in Utah and every summer go to the "Jeep" trails in the San Juan mountains of western Colorado. I have a modest 2" to 3" front and 1" rear lift with stock size KO2 tires, plus the TRD front skid plate. I have never had any problem on those trails which are just as rugged as those around Moab. I did bang up the front skid plate, but nothing of import was damaged.

I did my lift with just the Rough Country leveling kit which is inexpensive. That amount of lift does not need UCAs or any other "expensive" changes.

"I am required by law to take it wheeling down there 2-3 times a year." Ha, ha. No law requires you to go off road.

The only trails in the San Juans that I will not go on is Black Bear and Poughkeepsie gap, both which the Jeep rental companies don't let you take their vehicles on. Black Bear has 18" steps and on Poughkeepsie you are "guaranteed to bend metal". Other wise, everything else is fair game for a modestly lifted 4Rnner: Imogene, California Gulch, Cinnamon and Engineer, and Corkscrew. BTW, my dad was born in Ophir (Colorado) and the Ophir pass is one of my favorites, although not the most challenging.

Have fun, Dave, and be safe.
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Old 12-26-2020, 03:06 PM #5
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Thanks Buddy! I am a newb, I am ok with that....


i REALLY love the KO2 s I have now- veryt nice tires.... I guess I could go bigger on them when I replace them....

I think that is about what I am looking for- something to get me confident like I have the gear I need, and I just need to be careful...

Are you SURE that Utah does not have a law requiring you off road? I think maybe its only when you buy a 4x4 or something.... I feel so lucky to live here and have places like the Moab and Zion so close by!
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Old 12-26-2020, 03:14 PM #6
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Originally Posted by carfac View Post
Thanks Buddy! I am a newb, I am ok with that....


i REALLY love the KO2 s I have now- veryt nice tires.... I guess I could go bigger on them when I replace them....

I think that is about what I am looking for- something to get me confident like I have the gear I need, and I just need to be careful...

Are you SURE that Utah does not have a law requiring you off road? I think maybe its only when you buy a 4x4 or something.... I feel so lucky to live here and have places like the Moab and Zion so close by!
Nope, no law requires you to go off road. You may be confused with the requirement to have 4X4 to go to the ski resorts in the Cottonwood canyons when the weather is really bad.

In the old days, it was often recommended that you use 4X4 occasionally to keep the transfer case and front drive train lubricated, but that is no longer needed with the 4Runner. Everything moves and gets lubricated with 2 wheel driving, it is just the front axle gets disconnected in 2 wheel mode.
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Old 12-26-2020, 04:44 PM #7
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Pretty sure I read that off road law when I was planning my last trip through there. I like to brush up on all 4x4 and gun laws whenever I take a trip and there is a law stating that 4runners have to be wheeled quarterly or face fines.
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Old 12-26-2020, 06:47 PM #8
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I thought the law line was funny.... no there is no law.... but seriously, with Moab 2 hours away, THERE SHOULD BE!

Anyway, back to the matter at hand.... I get Engineer thinks I am OK.... and probably better off not doing anything since I drive 20K miles a year normally.... I am good with that....

I just thought I am at 605 K now, and I see a slight lowering in the back now with all my gear I carry.... might be a good time to do something....
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Old 12-26-2020, 08:13 PM #9
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Out of the 17 Toyota 4x4's I have owned a dozen of them have been lifted. It's a slippery slope once you start messing with the suspension geometry. If you aren't hitting the undercarriage off road you're probably fine with better shocks and just decent tires like you have now. Stock mine was so underdamped and bouncy on the rocky trails I went on I bashed the crap out of the stock skid plate under the engine and my muffler is a bit customized. The spare tire dragged a lot too. I'm now at about 2.5" in the front and 1-3/4 in the rear with 285's. Usually when I do go off road I'm alone so a winch and recovery gear was essential. But honestly I probably would have been fine just leaving it alone and doing more off-road on my motorcycle. However I really prefer the way truck drives and looks far better now.
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Old 12-27-2020, 12:18 AM #10
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A couple of suggestions:

Next time you go to Moab, stop by an 4X4 rental outfit and ask them what they do to their vehicles for the off road crowd. In Western Colorado, all they do is a spacer (2" lift or so front) and 1" rear.

Also, ask them what trails they prohibit their rental customers to go. That will give you an idea what to avoid.

I've found the rental outfits are more than willing to give out such info for they are just promoting their area. Helps the economy etc.
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Old 12-27-2020, 01:00 AM #11
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With AT tires and skids you can do Hell's Revenge, Top of the World, and lots of other trails.

Doing a lot of miles per year, just realize that when you start going larger sizes in tires your cost per mile goes way up, while your on road performance goes down. Most of the race type aftermarket shocks (King, Icon, SAW) use spherical bearings instead of bushings, which require frequent replacement.
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Old 12-27-2020, 01:08 AM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fkheath View Post
You are not an idiot or newb! You are asking intelligent questions.

First, understand that ANY lift, front and/or rear, will NOT increase the clearance below the rear differential. The only way to do that is bigger tires/wheels. But keep in mind that the higher you go, the more unstable your on road drive will be.

It depends on how much you want to spend, and how extreme you want to go in your off road adventures. I also live in Utah and every summer go to the "Jeep" trails in the San Juan mountains of western Colorado. I have a modest 2" to 3" front and 1" rear lift with stock size KO2 tires, plus the TRD front skid plate. I have never had any problem on those trails which are just as rugged as those around Moab. I did bang up the front skid plate, but nothing of import was damaged.

I did my lift with just the Rough Country leveling kit which is inexpensive. That amount of lift does not need UCAs or any other "expensive" changes.

"I am required by law to take it wheeling down there 2-3 times a year." Ha, ha. No law requires you to go off road.

The only trails in the San Juans that I will not go on is Black Bear and Poughkeepsie gap, both which the Jeep rental companies don't let you take their vehicles on. Black Bear has 18" steps and on Poughkeepsie you are "guaranteed to bend metal". Other wise, everything else is fair game for a modestly lifted 4Rnner: Imogene, California Gulch, Cinnamon and Engineer, and Corkscrew. BTW, my dad was born in Ophir (Colorado) and the Ophir pass is one of my favorites, although not the most challenging.

Have fun, Dave, and be safe.
Black Bear is easily doable in a bone stock 4runner.
I managed to get up P Gulch when I was mostly stock, just 33" Duratracs with rear locker and atrac, but it was difficult. Much easier with larger mud tires and dual lockers. There is also a bypass for the wall now.
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Old 12-27-2020, 01:40 AM #13
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OP, here is a good basic tutorial on lifts.
Top 10 5th Gen 4Runner Lift Kits - What Suspension Is Right For You?

If it were me I'd go Bilstein 6112/5160's or Dobinsons IMS. I'd skip OME. They're a durable and reliable shock but ride like a bucking bronco.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fkheath View Post
The only trails in the San Juans that I will not go on is Black Bear and Poughkeepsie gap, both which the Jeep rental companies don't let you take their vehicles on. Black Bear has 18" steps and on Poughkeepsie you are "guaranteed to bend metal". Other wise, everything else is fair game for a modestly lifted 4Rnner: Imogene, California Gulch, Cinnamon and Engineer, and Corkscrew. BTW, my dad was born in Ophir (Colorado) and the Ophir pass is one of my favorites, although not the most challenging.

Have fun, Dave, and be safe.
You not willing to do Black Bear or Poughkeepsie is probably more of a personal fear rather than actual limitation of the vehicle or bending of metal. I did Black Bear on 265's and a 1.5" lift. In all honesty the lift was not needed run this trail. I hit my skid once and that was on the spot that many people flip their vehicles right before the steps but not actually on "the steps". I've seen stock 4Runners do this trail. A Jeep Renegade (not Wrangler) can do the trail. The steps is not actually that hard to navigate it's more of the fact that you're leaning down the ravine that is more intimidating than anything. Navigating the rest of the narrow shelf road can also be intimidating as well. If your daddy was born in Ophir and you've been to the San Juans and have taken as many trails as you've described there then there is no reason you wouldn't be able to do Black Bear Pass. The vehicle is not the limitation here, it's the driver. I'm not saying that to be an ass, it's just the facts. Like I said I've seen stock 4Runners and crossover based SUVs take this trail.

Jeep rental companies won't let you run Black Bear Pass because there is a GREAT chance of these people rolling the vehicle, driving off the cliff, and kill themselves along with other people/vehicles on the trail. People who rent Jeeps are newbs and haven't done any 4 wheel driving. They wouldn't even know how to put it into 4-Lo, turn on lockers, or traction aids much less understand angles and lines. They're worried about the huge liability of death, not because it would cause trail damage to the vehicle.

Imagine if this was a Jeep rental and it took out another vehicle on BBP. No way in hell any company would take that liability.

Jeep Wrangler Falls off BLACK BEAR PASS ! - YouTube

Poughkeepsie, I haven't done it. I plan to go back and do it some time. I'm not too concerned about bending metal, that's what the skids and sliders are for.

For reference. Pretty mild build if you ask me. Looks like sliders, possibly skids, and lift/tires. The 4Runner handled it with ease, didn't bend any metal and he didn't even touch any of the plastic fascia either. Again, driver competence is everything.

4wd Action @ Poughkeepsie Pass including "The Wall" 4Runner TRD Off-Road - YouTube
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Old 12-28-2020, 09:38 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fkheath View Post
In the old days, it was often recommended that you use 4X4 occasionally to keep the transfer case and front drive train lubricated, but that is no longer needed with the 4Runner. Everything moves and gets lubricated with 2 wheel driving, it is just the front axle gets disconnected in 2 wheel mode.
per the owners manual:
■Four-wheel drive usage frequency
You should drive in four-wheel drive for at least 10 miles (16 km) each month.
This will assure that the front drive components are lubricated.
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Old 12-28-2020, 11:08 AM #15
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For that amount of wheeling, I would consider a Bilstein 1.7 or 2" lift with 275 tires. I have the Bilstein and adjusted the lift to 1.7" and slapped on 275 and I think its perfect. Its a little over 1" than a stock TRD PRO. Maybe show us some pictures so we can get a better idea.
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