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Old 06-24-2021, 05:51 AM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000MPH View Post

Personally I would do at least one drain and fill to check the condition of your fluid, itís probably similar to mine when I changed last year.

How many original miles? Want to sell your truck?
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. My 2010 4 Runner is just under 87K miles, still looks and runs great, but she is about to get new brakes on the front...especially since I'm still on the original brakes... at this point, not interested in selling it..
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Old 06-24-2021, 05:59 AM #17
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Hey guys, thought I'd just throw this in.. I reached out to a friend of mine who is a master tech at a Lexus dealership. He told me that his dealership has now stopped doing the tranny flush or complete fluid exchange because of some of the issues they've seen from doing it... He gave me a technical answer which is over my head, something to do with pressure plates? ( I could be wrong about that ). Just wanted to toss this into the conversation.
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Old 06-24-2021, 10:05 AM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLAND1955 View Post
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it. My 2010 4 Runner is just under 87K miles, still looks and runs great, but she is about to get new brakes on the front...especially since I'm still on the original brakes... at this point, not interested in selling it..
That's one thing TOyota can make a "Long-life" claim on are the brakes pads. There's a few guys who claimed to hit 100k+ on their original brake pads
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Old 06-24-2021, 11:21 AM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLAND1955 View Post
... The one dealership here that is recommending it uses the BG Power Flush Service is a fast, efficient exchange of your vehicle's transmission fluid. They claim It removes the old fluid and replaces it with new, clean transmission fluid in as little as 5-7 minutes, making it one of the fastest and most efficient flushes on the market.
I carefully studied the use of a BG Power Flush and decided I would not want a shop to use that machine on my vehicle. Sorry for the long post, but if you want to know the details, read on.

BG PF5-HO Power Flush and Fluid Exchange System - YouTube is a YouTube video showing how to use the BG Power Flush machine. At the beginning of the video, an operator hooks up a new BG machine to a vehicle, sets the BG machine in bypass mode (no pumping), starts the vehicle engine and lets the engine idle. At that point the vehicle transmission is pumping fluid through the BG machine. Operator notes the flow and pressure is low. Operator resets BG machine to process, and flips a switch to power a 12 volt pump on the BG machine. At 5:55 the operator notes, "The BG pump increased the flow from almost no flow whatsoever to around a gallon per minute." This doesn't make sense.

When I exchange ATF in my 4Runner with the engine at idle, the automatic transmission pumps out 3 quarts of ATF in less than one minute. I shut the engine off in about 20-30 seconds, after 3 quarts was pumped out so that the pump doesn't run dry, add new ATF fluid and repeat the process four times.

Why does the BG operator have to engage a 12 volt BG pump to assist the vehicles automatic transmission pump to flow a gallon per minute at engine idle? How could the vehicle's transmission pump allow the BG machine to pass higher flow through the transmission pump with the engine at idle? Why is the vehicle's automatic transmission ATF flowrate so low at engine idle?

BGPF-5 Transmission Flush Machine - YouTube is a better video on how to connect and operate the BG machine.

BG PF5 Certified Technician - YouTube describes adding BG Quick Clean to the transmission and starting the engine to clean varnish and gum. Then operator exchanges the fluid to remove old ATF and the BG Quick Clean solution. Personally, I would not want any varnish and gum cleaner in my transmission. I also would not want a conditioner added to the new ATF fluid as shown in this video.

In the comment section of the last video is the following post, "Most over-complicated trans flush machine on the market. And this is coming from a career diesel tech." A Ford Tech posts this, "Of all the transmissions I've torn down for the last 16 years, I have yet to witness varnish & gum. The solution to pollution is dilution. Drain and fill every 30k and you're good to go." A guy named Looker posts, "This is NOT a good idea if you care about what your car, these machines mix up fluids and are highly prone to operator error. They use the same fluids on all brands of cars, BG Universal ATF fluid….which is a problem if you care about using OEM fluids. The machine leaves behind flush fluid residue, there is no way to ensure all the old fluid and flush is removed but BG Products is great at pushing these services. Every can that Technician opens…he recovers a “token” that he trades in for $$ from the BG distributor…..all at your expense Mr. Customer."

After studying all of the above, I would not exchange ATF at a shop that uses a BG Power Flush machine because (1) they use a cleaner/conditioner, (2) the machine and hoses are not flushed after each service, therefore the operator must use a BG universal fluid for many vehicles, or have a different flush machine for each fluid type, and (3) the machine is complex to operate and possibly prone to operator error. It's shocking that the technician in the first video was not able to clearly describe how the BG machine operates.

According to the BG website, about 100+ automotive shops in the Phoenix area use BG machines to service automatic transmissions. See BG Big Dawg(R) II Power Flush and Fluid Exchange System | BG Products, Inc. The newer Big Dawg PF-19 machine operates exactly like the PF-5 in the above videos. The BG website lists several different BG branded ATF products offered to the shops they serve.

Last edited by DougR; 06-24-2021 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 06-24-2021, 11:52 AM #20
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My torque converter in my 2011 started going out at 155k. Dealer said I needed a new one at around $3500 cost. I found other users who solved the issue with a fluid exchange so I paid $300 for the dealer to do that. It solved my issue. I'll now be doing a fluid exchange in my 2016 when I hit 60k, then again at 120k.
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Old 06-24-2021, 12:16 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROLAND1955 View Post
Hey guys, thought I'd just throw this in.. I reached out to a friend of mine who is a master tech at a Lexus dealership. He told me that his dealership has now stopped doing the tranny flush or complete fluid exchange because of some of the issues they've seen from doing it... He gave me a technical answer which is over my head, something to do with pressure plates? ( I could be wrong about that ). Just wanted to toss this into the conversation.
Shops do not remove and clean the transmission pan during a flush. Before exchanging the old ATF fluid they may add a cleaning solution to loosen gum, varnish and debris that sticks to the pan and filter. Then they change the fluid and afterwards they may add a conditioning solution to the new ATF fluid. If the Lexus dealer used a cleaner and/or conditioner, then I suspect those solutions were incompatible with either the ATF fluid or a special coating material on some parts in the transmission.

If you elect to have ATF fluid exchanged at a shop, then ask them if they use cleaners and/or conditioners. The service writer probably doesn't know, so he may say yes to make a sale if he thinks you want a cleaner/conditioner, or he may say no we don't if he thinks you don't want them. You need to talk to the shop foreman and be discrete as to how you pose the question on cleaners and conditioners.

The other option is to do several drain and fills over an interval of time where the first drain and fill includes a pan drop and clean.

Last edited by DougR; 06-24-2021 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 06-24-2021, 12:45 PM #22
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I did a full ATF fluid exchange at 81k on my 2014 as preventative maintenance. I bought 13 quarts of the Toyota WS fluid but used close to 12 quarts. I also dropped my transmission oil pan to clean it, along with the magnets and filter screen. Replaced the pan gasket with a new one from Toyota, torqued all the bolts back to factory specs. Original fluid drained with dark brown.

My driving consists of many miles on 4HI/LOW while on trails, plus hauling heavy camping gear back and forth over the mountain passes here in the PNW. Now I'm at 95k and no issues at all since the fluid exchange. Transmission shifts just as smooth as when the vehicle was new. I've added a Hayden 678 tranny cooler which as been keeping the operating temps down by nearly 20į. Next exchange will be another 80k+.
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Old 06-24-2021, 06:40 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnofpeace View Post
I wonder why a dealership would say dont do it...especially when the owners manual specifically gives a mileage number of when to do it. Maybe 'flush' means something different than 'drain-refill' to them. Maybe someone can teach me the diff as well...

Owned since new, I had mine done at 110,000 miles. I wasnt having any problems, no slippage, no issues with 4WD or offroading or in snow. I just figured it was time (per the manual) and i got it done...flush, filter change, and refill. and i havnt worried about it since. I plan on doing it again at 200,000.

on some level, Toyo does say this is a 'sealed' transmission...however, if thta were the case, why is it so easy to empty and refill it?

this guy seems to be credible on some level
Toyota 4Runner Transmission. Why is it so reliable? - YouTube

he has a whole series on the T4R...
The Car Care Nut - YouTube

adding to that...on other posts
Fluid Change Interval

where it is pretty steady in people learning/saying do it at 100K.


hope this helps
The Car Car Nut recommends a drain-and-fill every 60k miles/6 years on all Toyotas. No filter change needed.
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Old 06-25-2021, 12:11 AM #24
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I do a drain and fill every year regardless of miles with Amsoil signature series (blue top) ATF. Most important thing to me besides changing the fluid is to make sure the level is correct at the right temperature; I follow Toyota procedure in the service manual for this. Transmission at 132k and still shifting flawlessly!!
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Old 06-25-2021, 11:04 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blakjack23 View Post
My torque converter in my 2011 started going out at 155k. Dealer said I needed a new one at around $3500 cost. I found other users who solved the issue with a fluid exchange so I paid $300 for the dealer to do that. It solved my issue. I'll now be doing a fluid exchange in my 2016 when I hit 60k, then again at 120k.
i bought a used camry with 55k miles on the odometer and i was so mad at myself because i thought the transmission was on its way out. The downshifts from 5th to 4th to 3rd at 75 mph was causing such a rpm flare/slip and jerk, that I thought for sure i had to replace the transmission shortly.

I tested the cheapest repair i could, valvoline maxlife from walmart. After a full capacity fluid exchange, the problem was gone.

Decided to do the same on my 4runner at 75k miles and it cured the 1st to 2nd gear hesitation.

Then lost faith in these "long life" fluid claims
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Old 06-25-2021, 01:49 PM #26
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My favorite thread for all things regarding my transmission is here:Transmission- 5 Speed automatic write up with pics for second gen 4 liter trucks | Tacoma World

It is the same transmission we have and covers a lot of ground.

I have read it a number of times and done an exchange at 30K. I will probably do another at 60k. Just my 2c. Best of luck!
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Old 06-25-2021, 05:25 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blakjack23 View Post
My torque converter in my 2011 started going out at 155k. Dealer said I needed a new one at around $3500 cost. I found other users who solved the issue with a fluid exchange so I paid $300 for the dealer to do that. It solved my issue. I'll now be doing a fluid exchange in my 2016 when I hit 60k, then again at 120k.

Had you kept the original fluid in the 2011 until 155k?


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Old 06-25-2021, 05:31 PM #28
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Fun guy to watch on TikTok jontus.kaiser is a Toyota tech and in one video he stated their transmission fluid is completely devoid of any friction modifiers. Does anyone know if this is accurate? I can find one source that verifies it but want to know if thatís still accurate for the newest models.

ďM2C-33 G specification Type G ATF (1980s Ford Europe and Japan)[3] specifically excludes the addition of friction modifiers.[3]Ē

Automatic transmission fluid - Wikipedia click ďModern useĒ

Would the absence of these friction modifiers be cause to change fluid more often than manual states?


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Old 06-25-2021, 06:49 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turfboy View Post
My favorite thread for all things regarding my transmission is here:Transmission- 5 Speed automatic write up with pics for second gen 4 liter trucks | Tacoma World

It is the same transmission we have and covers a lot of ground.

I have read it a number of times and done an exchange at 30K. I will probably do another at 60k. Just my 2c. Best of luck!
I thought I read them all but I hadnít read that one. Good thread.
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Old 06-25-2021, 08:51 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNT_GOAT View Post
The Car Car Nut recommends a drain-and-fill every 60k miles/6 years on all Toyotas. No filter change needed.
The Car Care Nut recommends replacing fluid at 60,000 mile intervals in transmissions that use WS or CVT and 30,000 miles if the transmission uses T-IV fluid.

An ATF drain and fill interval of 60,000 miles is too long if the average fluid age in miles should not exceed 100,000. The transmission holds 11.3 quarts. Let’s assume 3.5 quarts are changed on each drain and fill.

I calculated average fluid age in miles after multiple 60,000 mile drain and fills. Obviously, 11.3 quarts of OEM ATF has aged 60,000 miles prior to the 1st drain and fill. Immediately prior to the 2nd drain and fill, 3.5 quarts will have aged 60,000 miles and 7.8 quarts will have aged 120,000 miles for an average fluid age of 101,416 miles. Therefore, the 2nd drain and fill has already exceeded a 100,000 average age limit. Average fluid age rises rapidly as total vehicle mileage accumulates.

Drain and Fill Count / Total Vehicle Miles / Average Fluid Age
1 / 60,000 / 60,000
2 / 120,000 / 101,416
3 / 180,000 / 130,004
4 / 240,000 / 149,737
5 / 300,000 / 163,358
10 / 600,000 / 188,957
20 / 1,200,000 / 193,597

A 30,000 drain and fill interval will always maintain an average fluid age of less than 100,000 miles as illustrated in this table.

Drain and Fill Count / Total Vehicle Miles / Average Fluid Age
1 / 30,000 / 30,000
2 / 60,000 / 50,708
3 / 90,000 / 65,002
4 / 120,000 / 74,869
5 / 150,000 / 81,679
10 / 300,000 / 94,479
20 / 600,000 / 96,799

About 70% of the fluid is NOT drained on each drain and fill, which contributes to rapid aging over the first 5 changes. Eventually, the fluid does not age as rapidly. Overall, it's better to replace transmission fluid at 60,000 miles or perform multiple drain and fills over a short interval.

Last edited by DougR; 07-02-2021 at 11:28 AM.
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