08-03-2021, 01:30 PM
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#31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salvo
FWIW, I just got out of a 2018 v6 Tacoma and into a 21 ORP T4R and the T4R is far superior in this regard. Gear hunting in the Taco was absolutely intolerable.
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You have to think, the Tacoma has a similarly underpowered V6 but SIX gears to fumble through!
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08-03-2021, 01:44 PM
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#32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Bronson
I agree with everyone that the 4runner is a truck, is 4700+lbs, has a long geared 5AT, and is lacking in torque and/or torque multiplication, BUT it still doesn't explain to me why I can be in CC and apply some steady and minor throttle when going up an minor long incline and the truck will rarely downshift into 4th and will never gear hunt. It sometimes unlocks the torque converter which provides MORE TORQUE MULTIPLICATION! What a novel idea?! Yet when leaving CC to full control, it doesn't want to unlock the TC in 5th, but rather downshift. It makes no freaking sense that they can't at least lessen this issue with a simple shift logic reprogram. This is 2021 after all.
Driving in the hills of northern Arkansas made me appreciate driving in 4th and even sometimes 3rd. A running speed of 2200-2400rpms seems to be the sweet spot for this motor in terms of response, smoothness, and mpg assuming you're having to deal with some minor topography. We saw nearly 20mpg in driving in the winding hills with a good amount of coasting followed by heavy throttle to climb. I never thought 20mpg would be possible, especially in hilly driving. Speeds ranged from 30mph to 65mph and we did 200 miles in the area. Then we head home on the interstate at speeds of ~75mph and saw 17.0 mpg. In the 4runner's defense, it did have a paddleboard on top and facing a cross wind of ~15mph.
Don't get me wrong, I do love the truck and my wife (her truck) absolutely loves it. Interstate driving just isn't what it's good at. Unfortunately for us, we have to do a lot interstate driving to get to fun places.
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Agree - Toyota’s not so logical “logic” and something I’ve never heard of… an in-between setting called Flex Lockup? (Read link in my earlier post, toward the end it Sounds like a recipe for premature lockup clutch wear…
TCM (ECM?) programming seems to be set thinking they can predict driver intent given the inputs and readings at any given moment, but they’re basing it on assumptions that the driver input MUST BE incorrect and needs correcting.
Reminds me of going from cable throttle to drive by wire. The 1+ second delay from input to response, slow mushy shifts… engineers with this preconceived notion that it MUST be drivers stabbing the throttle after seeing the light turn green that accounts for their products’ shitty fuel mileage!
HA!
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08-03-2021, 02:11 PM
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#33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2021nightshade4x4
Agree - Toyota’s not so logical “logic” and something I’ve never heard of… an in-between setting called Flex Lockup? (Read link in my earlier post, toward the end it Sounds like a recipe for premature lockup clutch wear…
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Yeah, I've never heard of "Flex Lockup" until today. Most electronically controlled planetary automatics have torque converters that have "slip lock" which means the trans can lock, fully unlock, or partially lock the torque converter. Depending on the stall speed of the torque converter, it can give essentially provide few extra gears for 4th and 5th as unlocking the torque converter allows the trans to stay in the same gear but at a slightly higher rpm (~500rpms) plus some additional and much-needed torque multiplication. When the torque converter unlocks in the 4runner 5AT, rpms jump about 500rpms and then the truck usually has no issue cresting the hill. Every auto I've owned in the past 15 years manages to do this in cruise control. Why in 2021 Toyota still can't figure out how to do this is beyond boggling.
The biggest thing holding this truck back from better mpgs, acceleration, and overall driveability is a 8 speed auto like the one used in RWD Lexus products since freaking 2007.
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08-03-2021, 02:44 PM
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#34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Bronson
Yeah, I've never heard of "Flex Lockup" until today. Most electronically controlled planetary automatics have torque converters that have "slip lock" which means the trans can lock, fully unlock, or partially lock the torque converter. Depending on the stall speed of the torque converter, it can give essentially provide few extra gears for 4th and 5th as unlocking the torque converter allows the trans to stay in the same gear but at a slightly higher rpm (~500rpms) plus some additional and much-needed torque multiplication. When the torque converter unlocks in the 4runner 5AT, rpms jump about 500rpms and then the truck usually has no issue cresting the hill. Every auto I've owned in the past 15 years manages to do this in cruise control. Why in 2021 Toyota still can't figure out how to do this is beyond boggling.
The biggest thing holding this truck back from better mpgs, acceleration, and overall driveability is a 8 speed auto like the one used in RWD Lexus products since freaking 2007.
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8 spd could be a game changer, but it’s got to commit to those gear changes, too. It’s like there’s no learning going on, or it’s constantly in relearn. I am curious what OTHER dynamics (that we haven’t yet discussed) are at play here, too.
Did we not have V8’s 20 years ago with less power than the V6, in heavier trucks, connected to a 4AT that had less trouble climbing grades than the 4Runner lol
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08-03-2021, 03:11 PM
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#35
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CC algorithms in the 4Runner may suck, but I can't think of a single vehicle in 40 years of driving that I would want to use CC in the hills.
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08-03-2021, 04:14 PM
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#36
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^This. Asking a computer to consider transmission gear ratios + engine outputs + elevation changes + keeping a consistent speed = never going to feel "natural" because it's programmed to keep a consistent speed first and will upshift/downshift as needed to do that, and it often feels quite haphazard. Even on vehicles with 6-, 8- and 10-speed transmissions, this has been my experience.
With that said, the tall gearing and slow downshifts of the 5AT exacerbate the issue, but yeah.
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08-03-2021, 05:30 PM
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#37
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Gear hunting while in cruise control is "Character" per Toyota
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gecko
^This. Asking a computer to consider transmission gear ratios + engine outputs + elevation changes + keeping a consistent speed = never going to feel "natural" because it's programmed to keep a consistent speed first and will upshift/downshift as needed to do that, and it often feels quite haphazard. Even on vehicles with 6-, 8- and 10-speed transmissions, this has been my experience.
With that said, the tall gearing and slow downshifts of the 5AT exacerbate the issue, but yeah.
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So maybe the vehicle reacting to a 1 MPH decrease in speed seems sudden and unnecessary to a driver who only stabs the gas after he:
1.) notices decel, usually > 1 MPH
2.) reacts, pressing pedal
3.) vehicle reacts, downshifting
It’s an awkward operator experience for the same reasons people only get carsick as passengers, never as the driver. Anything happening feels “wrong” when it’s not operator-commanded. That’s my theory (or yours, that I’ll adopt)
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08-03-2021, 06:22 PM
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#38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5thToy
CC algorithms in the 4Runner may suck, but I can't think of a single vehicle in 40 years of driving that I would want to use CC in the hills.
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I guess the term "hill" is dependent on your definition. Steep and winding hills on two lane roads/highways? No way. Hills on the 4+ lane interstates of the Midwest? Hell yes you'll want and need CC.
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08-03-2021, 06:27 PM
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#39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Bronson
I guess the term "hill" is dependent on your definition. Steep and winding hills on two lane roads/highways? No way. Hills on the 4+ lane interstates of the Midwest? Hell yes you'll want and need CC.
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That's true. I have lived all over CA and Nevada. CC in every vehicle is ineffective on all the foothills, coastal ranges and mountains whether it be freeway or highway. Basically, it's effective on valley roads only. Certainly this also depends on how loaded you are and wether or not you are running heavier, oversized tires. I have rarely used it over the years. I guess that's a personal choice. I might if there had been adaptive systems I suppose, too much traffic.
Last edited by 5thToy; 08-03-2021 at 08:02 PM.
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08-03-2021, 07:07 PM
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#40
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Maggie S/C as a few others have noted cures this on HW cruising.
It's not a rocket ship... but I can tell you going up large inclines at HWY speeds it makes a huge difference.
Unfortunately, looks like Magnuson has not cracked the nanny's for Toyota Safety Sense. Bummer... If/when they do this would cure this.
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08-04-2021, 03:42 PM
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#41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sp00ner
Going up from Denver to Breckenridge I had whole climbs being done in like 3rd gear at 4500 RPMs for pretty extended periods of time just to maintain 70mph, I literally laughed out loud more than a few times.
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This is me all winter long, except I'm not laughing.
And then all the fanboys try to correct me when I say the powertrain is the worst part of the 5th gen b/c "reliable".
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08-04-2021, 03:56 PM
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#42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mscot
This is me all winter long, except I'm not laughing.
And then all the fanboys try to correct me when I say the powertrain is the worst part of the 5th gen b/c "reliable".
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This one won’t. I’m a fan of reliability but not to the detriment of functionality. Because then we’d be right back at square 1 with a machine that can’t do the job.
As customers with checks in hand, we have certain expectations of how vehicles will drive in 2021. We don’t have flying cars, but I do expect that my cars will FLY!
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08-04-2021, 04:07 PM
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#43
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Does anyone know if the 2007-2009 Tundras with the 4.7L V8 and 5-speed A750F also had the same gear hunting problem?
2010 got the 4.6 V8 coupled to a 6 speed auto.
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08-04-2021, 10:07 PM
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#44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2021nightshade4x4
Does anyone know if the 2007-2009 Tundras with the 4.7L V8 and 5-speed A750F also had the same gear hunting problem?
2010 got the 4.6 V8 coupled to a 6 speed auto.
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My old 2003 4runner with the 4.7 engine and 5 speed auto basically hunted the same as my 2014 but the V8 was so smooth and good sounding running that rpm is seemed more natural. If we had more gears you could have a ratio between 4 and 5 and 3 and 4.
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Last edited by 03_4x4Runner; 08-04-2021 at 11:42 PM.
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08-05-2021, 02:55 AM
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#45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03_4x4Runner
My old 2003 4runner with the 4.7 engine and 5 speed auto basically hunted the same as my 2014 but the V8 was so smooth and good sounding running that rpm is seemed more natural. If we had more gears you could have a ratio between 4 and 5 and 3 and 4.
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IIRC the power and torque curves on the V6 are anything but flat.
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