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Old 10-08-2021, 10:58 AM #16
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Have ran these for my headlights and fog lights on 3 vehicles for years now. No complaints.

Sale price right now too of $28 plus 10% off coupon on amazon: Amazon.com: HIKARI H11 LED Bulbs, 9600lm, High Lumens LED Conversion Kit, Japanese CSP LED Tech, CANBUS Ready, H9 Halogen Replacement Bulbs, 6000K Cool White, H8 Foglight : Automotive

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Old 10-08-2021, 11:08 AM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblah View Post
LED technology is where all the innovation is that is what direction I would go if I was considering upgrading my lights.
Speaking as one who has (consistently) come out against "drop in" LED and HID bulbs, believe it or not, I can agree with that statement. On the OEM side, there has been a ton of research, design and development work dedicated to LED lighting systems. (Note the emphasis.) The reason for this is that Light Emitting Diodes are a very different light source. Basically, you have a chip that lights up on its surface. Traditional incandescent bulbs use a filament that gives off an omnidirectional glow. This difference - at the heart of a lighting system - requires very different housings, reflectors and lenses in each system.

On the aftermarket side, 99.9% of the products you see are simply "drop in" bulbs that do a fairly poor job of compensating for the fact that the difference in the light source is a huge hurdle to overcome. And don't let the folks with the marketing hype that they've solved this problem by matching the location of the LEDs with that of an incandescent filament. Although it's partially correct, the LEDs are still facing just two directions where the filament illuminate's in a full 360 degree orb.

Here's another thought. If it were as easy as just dropping a set of $25 Amazon / eBay bulbs in an existing housing to convert to LED lighting, why don't OEMs use this technique? Think of how much it costs to design, test and manufacture a new headlight housing? The savings would be huge. Alas, this technique just doesn't work and that's why they don't do it.

So what of the relatively few manufacturers that do offer complete headlight (and tail light) assemblies to (supposedly) create a proper lighting system as I mentioned above? Well, most of them are more interested in looks / cool features and low price than proper lighting pattern and longevity. The OEMs on the other hand have to worry about compliance with government standards, warranty costs and reputation in addition to good looks. The general result is that the aftermarket lights look cool, but don't perform, comply with standards or last as long as OEM.

When I'm looking to upgrade my lighting, I look for the best systems which are generally offered only by the higher end suppliers. Drop in LEDs in my stuff? Not in the critical areas related to the safety of my family.
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Old 10-08-2021, 01:45 PM #18
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LED or HID Bulb Swap

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Originally Posted by Too Stroked View Post
Speaking as one who has (consistently) come out against "drop in" LED and HID bulbs, believe it or not, I can agree with that statement. On the OEM side, there has been a ton of research, design and development work dedicated to LED lighting systems. (Note the emphasis.) The reason for this is that Light Emitting Diodes are a very different light source. Basically, you have a chip that lights up on its surface. Traditional incandescent bulbs use a filament that gives off an omnidirectional glow. This difference - at the heart of a lighting system - requires very different housings, reflectors and lenses in each system.

On the aftermarket side, 99.9% of the products you see are simply "drop in" bulbs that do a fairly poor job of compensating for the fact that the difference in the light source is a huge hurdle to overcome. And don't let the folks with the marketing hype that they've solved this problem by matching the location of the LEDs with that of an incandescent filament. Although it's partially correct, the LEDs are still facing just two directions where the filament illuminate's in a full 360 degree orb.

Here's another thought. If it were as easy as just dropping a set of $25 Amazon / eBay bulbs in an existing housing to convert to LED lighting, why don't OEMs use this technique? Think of how much it costs to design, test and manufacture a new headlight housing? The savings would be huge. Alas, this technique just doesn't work and that's why they don't do it.

So what of the relatively few manufacturers that do offer complete headlight (and tail light) assemblies to (supposedly) create a proper lighting system as I mentioned above? Well, most of them are more interested in looks / cool features and low price than proper lighting pattern and longevity. The OEMs on the other hand have to worry about compliance with government standards, warranty costs and reputation in addition to good looks. The general result is that the aftermarket lights look cool, but don't perform, comply with standards or last as long as OEM.

When I'm looking to upgrade my lighting, I look for the best systems which are generally offered only by the higher end suppliers. Drop in LEDs in my stuff? Not in the critical areas related to the safety of my family.

Why do you surmise the LEDs for main beams have only a two-sided chip arrangement? Here’s my thought process:

1.) It’s not manufacturing limitations - signal and marker bulbs across several manufacturers offer 360 degree arrangement of chips.

2.) It sure as hell isn’t cost. High end aftermarket LED companies have NO problem charging $150-200 a pair for bulbs ONLY.

3.) Leaves us with the ability to control heat, and diminishing performance returns adding any more LED chips.

Have we considered the beam angle of the specific chips being used in these drop-ins? Would there be any noticeable improvement after completely changing the unit design to accommodate more facets for more chips?

Probably not.

Halogens and xenons, with 360 degrees of light, even in the most efficient reflector housing, lose most of that light. Looking at a reflector housing from the viewpoint of crouching in front of a car, the “ceiling”, the “floor”, and the “window” (lens) of the housing can automatically be written off, because they do not collect light. It is not useful to send direct light in these directions. The only light that should exit the lens of a reflector housing is reflected light. Also the bulb shield, which blocks direct viewing of the filament, does not reflect anything useful back onto the reflector, either.

The three remaining sides and “back wall” of the reflector bowl do all the work. Drop-in LEDs have BETTER light control because they ONLY fire light in directions that will make it to the road surface.

Let me paraphrase all the above - if you have crappy performance from a reputable drop-in LED that is indexed and aimed per instructions, you have crappy headlight housings. Whether it’s in the reflector design (OEM T4R halogen low beams) or an aging cloudy lens, its not the LEDs.
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Old 10-08-2021, 02:00 PM #19
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Alright, so in all of these LED threads about drop in bulbs, etc. I haven't seen many solutions being brought forward. We know LED drop ins aren't ideal. We know Toyota factory LEDs are not ideal. We know the factory halogens suck. We know Alpharex and other new housings suck. We can't just run with lightbars on.

So, aside from the H11 bulb high beam to low beam swap (which to me wasn't going to be an option due to looks alone), what are our options, oh holy lighting nerds? Is HID the only option or are those not ideal either? Are we stuck with halogen crap?

Or, do we call a spade a spade and just let people run what they like and stop overanalyzing everything if what they're running isn't hurting anybody?
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Old 10-08-2021, 03:33 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro367 View Post
So, aside from the H11 bulb high beam to low beam swap (which to me wasn't going to be an option due to looks alone), what are our options, oh holy lighting nerds? Is HID the only option or are those not ideal either? Are we stuck with halogen crap?

Or, do we call a spade a spade and just let people run what they like and stop overanalyzing everything if what they're running isn't hurting anybody?
Aside from modifying an H9 bulb to fit in our H11 slot, there are a couple of drop-in H11s that are in the same ball park: Tungsram Nighthawk Xenon and Osram Nightbreaker. They don't put out quite as much lux beyond 40ft as the H9, but they are pretty close. They are also whiter, if that is what you're after. There is also the option of retrofitting the stock housing with an LED projector.

People can run whatever they like. Most people don't know that their LED drop-in bulbs aren't as good as the stock halogens. They get fooled into thinking they are better with marketing and all of that extra foreground light. They also don't know that all that foreground light is going to become glare for on-coming drivers. Once they know these things, they can make the choice to A) have less light and be a dick to other drivers or B) try out something else.
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Old 10-08-2021, 04:10 PM #21
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I've used the H9 modified to fit the low beam housing. It was only marginally better than the factory low beams.

We can talk all the theories and metering we want, but my eyeball testing shows that my XD HID lows are a major upgrade, with further throw and less shadows than stock. My XD LED high beams are the same, further throw and more usable light than stock. The direct replacement LED bulbs in my fogs and backups are brighter and have more usable light.

Perhaps it's time to get over the analysis paralysis and stating textbook answers to why it doesn't work perfectly in a perfect world, because it's still an improvement over the subpar factory lighting.
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Old 10-08-2021, 04:24 PM #22
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Also, perceived bad things can actually be good things. Example, “washout” or what some would call excessive foreground lighting.

What creates an undesirable color washing in dry conditions (yellow lines look white, etc) is actually the same phenomenon (via light intensity and color temperature) that has the ability to light up wet pavement, so you can actually see that piece of black metal in the road on a rainy night. And not have to change a tire in that.


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Old 10-08-2021, 06:03 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2021nightshade4x4 View Post
Why do you surmise the LEDs for main beams have only a two-sided chip arrangement?

Halogens and xenons, with 360 degrees of light, even in the most efficient reflector housing, lose most of that light. Looking at a reflector housing from the viewpoint of crouching in front of a car, the “ceiling”, the “floor”, and the “window” (lens) of the housing can automatically be written off, because they do not collect light. It is not useful to send direct light in these directions. The only light that should exit the lens of a reflector housing is reflected light. Also the bulb shield, which blocks direct viewing of the filament, does not reflect anything useful back onto the reflector, either.

The three remaining sides and “back wall” of the reflector bowl do all the work. Drop-in LEDs have BETTER light control because they ONLY fire light in directions that will make it to the road surface.

Let me paraphrase all the above - if you have crappy performance from a reputable drop-in LED that is indexed and aimed per instructions, you have crappy headlight housings. Whether it’s in the reflector design (OEM T4R halogen low beams) or an aging cloudy lens, its not the LEDs.
Let me address three different areas of your reply. As to your first question about why "drop in" LED manufacturers use the two sided blade arrangement, let me answer a question with a better question. If that arrangement works so well, why is it the not a single OEM vehicle offers LED lighting with it? Simple. Because it's not very effective.

As to your second point about halogen reflectors losing most of their light through the reflector, I'm going to answer that with another question. If that was actually true - which it is not - then why do the most efficient LED designs use what's called TIR (Total Internal Reflector) technology? Simple - because it's so much more efficient.

Finally, I will agree - partially - with your point that a properly aimed and indexed high quality drop in LED bulb has some chance of performing well. Taking the skills of the average backyard mechanic into account, what percentage of these blubs will actually be properly aimed and indexed? In my personal experience, probably less than 5%. Nobody should ever have to adjust a properly designed bulb in any way shape or form.

Again, just my personal opinions.
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Old 10-08-2021, 10:07 PM #24
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Let me address three different areas of your reply. As to your first question about why "drop in" LED manufacturers use the two sided blade arrangement, let me answer a question with a better question. If that arrangement works so well, why is it the not a single OEM vehicle offers LED lighting with it? Simple. Because it's not very effective.

As to your second point about halogen reflectors losing most of their light through the reflector, I'm going to answer that with another question. If that was actually true - which it is not - then why do the most efficient LED designs use what's called TIR (Total Internal Reflector) technology? Simple - because it's so much more efficient.

Finally, I will agree - partially - with your point that a properly aimed and indexed high quality drop in LED bulb has some chance of performing well. Taking the skills of the average backyard mechanic into account, what percentage of these blubs will actually be properly aimed and indexed? In my personal experience, probably less than 5%. Nobody should ever have to adjust a properly designed bulb in any way shape or form.

Again, just my personal opinions.

I value everyone’s input here. My theories to answer some of the questions raised:

On why manufacturers don’t use retail LEDs… Gives them a chance to roll out a new part number with justification to raise the price even more. Many OEM LEDs are not replaceable. You have to replace the whole housing. They’d rather sell a $1500 complete unit than a $50 bulb they didn’t even make, and net $5-10 off it.

On reflectors and TIR… good luck getting any kind of street legal application as low main beam with TIR. They only make an appearance in vehicle applications as strictly off-road lighting. OEM housings with captive bulbs still use reflectors and rely on lighting differently positioned LED chips for lo/hi beams. TIR would require a mechanical projector hood or “eyelid” to work. Mechanical hoods exist (1st gen Chevy Volt) but TIR as main bulbs - show me.

On aiming and indexing… I think it’s safe to say that headlight housings should be at least checked (and aimed if necessary) with any bulb change. As for indexing, you have me there, on the principle that no other type of bulb CAN be indexed around its rotational axis. It is an extra step and possible failure point if not done or done incorrectly. OEM LED lights avoid this with fixed LED chips, and an increasing number of manufacturers are moving toward self-leveling systems, as well.

Cheers and hope everyone is doing well.


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Old 10-11-2021, 09:03 AM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baldrik78 View Post
Aside from modifying an H9 bulb to fit in our H11 slot, there are a couple of drop-in H11s that are in the same ball park: Tungsram Nighthawk Xenon and Osram Nightbreaker. They don't put out quite as much lux beyond 40ft as the H9, but they are pretty close. They are also whiter, if that is what you're after. There is also the option of retrofitting the stock housing with an LED projector.

People can run whatever they like. Most people don't know that their LED drop-in bulbs aren't as good as the stock halogens. They get fooled into thinking they are better with marketing and all of that extra foreground light. They also don't know that all that foreground light is going to become glare for on-coming drivers. Once they know these things, they can make the choice to A) have less light and be a dick to other drivers or B) try out something else.
So my "correct" options are two whiter halogens on amazon that are going to burn out after 3 months, stock halogen H9/H11 swap, or tear apart my headlight for a really expensive LED retrofit. So really just the H9/H11 swap that is marginally better and looks terrible. Even though my eyes tell me these are a huge upgrade and not one driver coming at me has told me my lights are too bright. Makes sense.
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Old 10-11-2021, 12:28 PM #26
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Headlight bulb swap

Hi ssyota4runner.

There are quite a few threads on here and the Taco forum regarding headlight (and fog light) bulb swaps. Two very informative discussions are below.

Headlight comparison stock vs others

3rd Gen HID vs LED vs Halogen H11 projector headlights | Tacoma World

I cannot speak for the majority of folks on here, let alone everyone. My own experience is mostly based on the in-depth analysis other folks have done, and some real world experience with both T4R and Hilux bulb swaps. Ultimately, I went with the H11 to H9 bulb conversation, and frankly I couldn't be happier. Leveraging a projector and lens designed to utilize a halogen bulb, upgrading the light source provides (to my, my spouse, friends'/colleagues' eyes) significant increases in both effective illumination and color - without impact to opposing drivers and personal eye fatigue. Additionally, while it looks like you might be from Alabama, if driving in snow or freezing rain is a possibility for you, the amount of lens heating caused by the bulbs should be taken into consideration.

Good luck with your changes, and look forward to seeing what route you go down for both interior and exterior choices!
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Old 10-11-2021, 03:32 PM #27
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Quote:
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So my "correct" options are two whiter halogens on amazon that are going to burn out after 3 months, stock halogen H9/H11 swap, or tear apart my headlight for a really expensive LED retrofit. So really just the H9/H11 swap that is marginally better and looks terrible. Even though my eyes tell me these are a huge upgrade and not one driver coming at me has told me my lights are too bright. Makes sense.
I've got to ask. What do you mean when you say they "look terrible?"
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Old 10-11-2021, 04:39 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro367 View Post
So my "correct" options are two whiter halogens on amazon that are going to burn out after 3 months, stock halogen H9/H11 swap, or tear apart my headlight for a really expensive LED retrofit. So really just the H9/H11 swap that is marginally better and looks terrible. Even though my eyes tell me these are a huge upgrade and not one driver coming at me has told me my lights are too bright. Makes sense.
We get it, you want an easy solution to a not so easy problem. Just like other things in life you get what you put into things. So if you are ok with a splotchy beam pattern with bright foreground lighting all good.

One thing to call out here though is doing a LED or HID projector retrofit is not as expensive or hard as you think. It cost me just over $400 and a weekend and the results were well worth it.
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Old 10-11-2021, 04:43 PM #29
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I'd say put HIDs in halogen projectors and blind everybody. It seems like 50% of people now drive with their high beams anyways.
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Old 10-11-2021, 08:38 PM #30
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