11-17-2021, 12:00 AM
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#1
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Utah
Posts: 10
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Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Utah
Posts: 10
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What a difference 2 degrees of castor makes
Being the mechanic I am I’ve seen lots of aftermarket control arms wear out very prematurely. I have never once recommended anyone with a Toyota ifs to get a pair. The price is extreme and they wear out before the factory does on the regular. You can get away with not installing a set really with no problem on a lifted application.
Now with that being said, I just installed a set of Icon tubular delta joint upper control arms on my 2018 TRDOR. I’ve got just over 68,000 miles and about 67,700 have been with it lifted on Bilstein 5100’s. For about 40,000 miles I ran them at 1.75” in the front and a 1” rear spacer first and then changed out for rear 1” springs. About 28,000 miles ago I brought the front up to 2.5 and changed the rear springs for bilstein 400lb 1.5”.
I am obsessed with this vehicle and have always maintained it and driven it with care. Being a mechanic with an alignment rack I’ve also aligned the damn thing about every 2-3 months. Once “Wayne” reached his final form, with the full 2.5 lift, I noticed the rear thrust angle was off about .2 degrees. So I bought an adjustable rear panhard to bring it dead straight again. My front specs were now out of factory tolerance at about 2.1-2.3 degrees of caster with .2-3 positive camber to give me a tad more caster. That’s all I could get.
I always thought the flighty feeling on the freeway was just the nature of the beast with being on 33’s, lifted 2.5”, running a roof top tent, drawers, and all the gear in the back. Now that I’ve had these installed, and I’m sitting at 4.3-4.5 degrees of caster and 0 camber, I can unequivocally tell everyone that will listen that upper control arms that correct geometry are needed once you run out of adjustment range. It makes the ride so much more comfortable since I’m not correcting the vehicle every bump I hit. The steering wheel feels heavier now in the best way possible. I’m enjoying the commute through construction on the freeway these past few mornings more and I’m now trying to find the rough parts to feel the difference.
If you made it this far I applaud you. The long and short of it is, do it. I have become a believer and will always add these to a suspension package when warranted. Btw, I bought these used with worn joints and rebuilt them for $500. Was I willing to pay $850 for these new, no sir. But here’s to learning and hoping these things make it at least as far as the factory ones did!
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
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11-17-2021, 12:13 AM
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#2
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
Posts: 3,193
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
Posts: 3,193
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you should get a EIMKEITH (PCK) panhard correction kit, if you are really serious about centering your rear axle though out its entire range of motion, and not just at its static height. The rear adjustable panhard bar is just a bandaid fix.
__________________
2016 trail 4runner, twin locked on 34's.
Can read more of my build here (2 parts):
https://www.lasfit.com/blogs/news/ho...ad-build-part1
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11-17-2021, 09:36 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: illinois
Posts: 1,597
Real Name: Ron
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: illinois
Posts: 1,597
Real Name: Ron
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Good to hear of your results from someone who can verify the results with the numbers and the feel.
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11-17-2021, 09:56 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: phoenix
Posts: 2,290
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: phoenix
Posts: 2,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblah
you should get a EIMKEITH (PCK) panhard correction kit, if you are really serious about centering your rear axle though out its entire range of motion, and not just at its static height. The rear adjustable panhard bar is just a bandaid fix.
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1.5" lift though. think its worth it? i'm stock panhard and no PCK with 1.5" rear lift. ive been on the fence about adding the PCK. the truck handles fantastic.
__________________
2016 TE : Grocery Getter, 34/10.5R17 Toyo at3, Prinsu Rack, King Coilovers, DuroBumps, ToyTec HD 2.0 springs, King shocks, King hydro bumps, Total Chaos mounts, DirtKing Fabrication UCA, VIVID RACING Tune, URD Y pipe, RCI skids, Marlin Crawler gussets, DRKDSS everything
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11-17-2021, 04:56 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
Posts: 3,193
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda250xtitan
1.5" lift though. think its worth it? i'm stock panhard and no PCK with 1.5" rear lift. ive been on the fence about adding the PCK. the truck handles fantastic.
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If it doesn't bother you, then probably not.
I'm OCD and had these three symptoms:
1. Visible and noticeable axle shift: Taking a measuring tape and measure from frame to outer tire tread on both rear wheel wells. I was off 1/2 to 3/4 of a inch at a 3 inch rear lift towards passenger side. With -negative offset wheels, its very noticeable. This bothered me the most. I'm sure 1/2 to 3/4 of a inch wouldn't really cause alot of axle/drivetrain bind, but it couldn't be good either.
2. High speed rear bump steer on the freeway (butt wiggle). This wasn't fun.
3. Offroading, For me, my rear end wanted to fish tail ALOT in 4 hi on loose sand, so i knew my vehicle wasn't tracking straight. Most people, use the PCK to keep their driveline from hitting the gas tank skid at full stuff. I havent experienced that yet.
There are no negatives other than finding a welder. Easy to install too. Only need to take the driverside rear tire off and jack it up to weld. Don't have to buy a expensive adjustable rear track bar (which i also have).
__________________
2016 trail 4runner, twin locked on 34's.
Can read more of my build here (2 parts):
https://www.lasfit.com/blogs/news/ho...ad-build-part1
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11-17-2021, 07:28 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: phoenix
Posts: 2,290
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: phoenix
Posts: 2,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblah
If it doesn't bother you, then probably not.
I'm OCD and had these three symptoms:
1. Visible and noticeable axle shift: Taking a measuring tape and measure from frame to outer tire tread on both rear wheel wells. I was off 1/2 to 3/4 of a inch at a 3 inch rear lift towards passenger side. With -negative offset wheels, its very noticeable. This bothered me the most. I'm sure 1/2 to 3/4 of a inch wouldn't really cause alot of axle/drivetrain bind, but it couldn't be good either.
2. High speed rear bump steer on the freeway (butt wiggle). This wasn't fun.
3. Offroading, For me, my rear end wanted to fish tail ALOT in 4 hi on loose sand, so i knew my vehicle wasn't tracking straight. Most people, use the PCK to keep their driveline from hitting the gas tank skid at full stuff. I havent experienced that yet.
There are no negatives other than finding a welder. Easy to install too. Only need to take the driverside rear tire off and jack it up to weld. Don't have to buy a expensive adjustable rear track bar (which i also have).
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yea i have no symptoms. i also have a welder in the garage so its been on my mind to install just for the fun aspect
__________________
2016 TE : Grocery Getter, 34/10.5R17 Toyo at3, Prinsu Rack, King Coilovers, DuroBumps, ToyTec HD 2.0 springs, King shocks, King hydro bumps, Total Chaos mounts, DirtKing Fabrication UCA, VIVID RACING Tune, URD Y pipe, RCI skids, Marlin Crawler gussets, DRKDSS everything
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11-17-2021, 07:48 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
Posts: 3,193
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
Posts: 3,193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda250xtitan
yea i have no symptoms. i also have a welder in the garage so its been on my mind to install just for the fun aspect
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If you got a welder, i would definitely do it.
My buddy also installed a PCK at the same time i did, and like yourself, he was asymptomatic before the install. After the install, he said his rear end feels better but can't say why. Probably rear end feels more planted in general.
It's kind of like upgrading your rear upper and lower links. It's hard to quantify the improvement, but your ass and your spine will definitely feel a qualitative improvement.
I think i mentioned in the past, the PCK made me realize how big of a waste of money my adjustable panhard bar was...lol.
__________________
2016 trail 4runner, twin locked on 34's.
Can read more of my build here (2 parts):
https://www.lasfit.com/blogs/news/ho...ad-build-part1
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11-18-2021, 01:59 AM
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#8
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: phoenix
Posts: 2,290
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: phoenix
Posts: 2,290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblah
If you got a welder, i would definitely do it.
My buddy also installed a PCK at the same time i did, and like yourself, he was asymptomatic before the install. After the install, he said his rear end feels better but can't say why. Probably rear end feels more planted in general.
It's kind of like upgrading your rear upper and lower links. It's hard to quantify the improvement, but your ass and your spine will definitely feel a qualitative improvement.
I think i mentioned in the past, the PCK made me realize how big of a waste of money my adjustable panhard bar was...lol.
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"feeling planted"" is such an underrated feeling unless you've felt the improvement. my experience is with traction bars on my titan. HUGE difference. So now i want this. right now. lol.
__________________
2016 TE : Grocery Getter, 34/10.5R17 Toyo at3, Prinsu Rack, King Coilovers, DuroBumps, ToyTec HD 2.0 springs, King shocks, King hydro bumps, Total Chaos mounts, DirtKing Fabrication UCA, VIVID RACING Tune, URD Y pipe, RCI skids, Marlin Crawler gussets, DRKDSS everything
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11-18-2021, 02:13 AM
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#9
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Fruita, CO
Age: 43
Posts: 3,985
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Fruita, CO
Age: 43
Posts: 3,985
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblah
you should get a EIMKEITH (PCK) panhard correction kit, if you are really serious about centering your rear axle though out its entire range of motion, and not just at its static height. The rear adjustable panhard bar is just a bandaid fix.
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I am no 4 link suspension expert, by any means, but I don't see how this would benefit most 5th gen lifted 4runners, unless you are extending the bump stops and using longer travel rear shocks...
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11-18-2021, 04:27 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
Posts: 3,193
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy556
I am no 4 link suspension expert, by any means, but I don't see how this would benefit most 5th gen lifted 4runners, unless you are extending the bump stops and using longer travel rear shocks...
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it is definitely something i didn't need, until i needed it.
My buddy is alot smarter than me and decided to retroactively install it, so he doesn't have to experience all the above IF it were to occur. However, I had to ask him what he thinks of the PCK in his current setup... He says he likes it alot.
This is one of those mods, where you have to drive it, and then you will say "okay I get it now".
__________________
2016 trail 4runner, twin locked on 34's.
Can read more of my build here (2 parts):
https://www.lasfit.com/blogs/news/ho...ad-build-part1
Last edited by mrblah; 11-18-2021 at 04:58 AM.
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11-18-2021, 04:38 AM
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#11
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
Posts: 3,193
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: san diego
Posts: 3,193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by honda250xtitan
"feeling planted"" is such an underrated feeling unless you've felt the improvement. my experience is with traction bars on my titan. HUGE difference. So now i want this. right now. lol.
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i love my adjustable upper and lower links.
To everyone else:
Is it worth it? YES. Is it necessary? NO. Would I purchase them again? YES.
On my daily commute, my rear end feels as if its floating, or non-existent. Offroading, on the washboards, it just glides over them because the rear suspension will allow the springs and shocks to load and unload even quicker due to lack of binding caused by OEM bushings.
At the same time, i think my aftermarket upper/lower rear links did make the off center axle symptoms way more apparent (fishtailing in 4hi) until i fixed it with a PCK.
Only thing i hate about them is the one i bought has a huge jam nut on the johnny joint end. If it gets loose just by a little bit...its clunk galore. I had to apply loctite and also apply a massive amount of torque to it to keep it from getting loose. Its just one more thing to keep an eye on.
__________________
2016 trail 4runner, twin locked on 34's.
Can read more of my build here (2 parts):
https://www.lasfit.com/blogs/news/ho...ad-build-part1
Last edited by mrblah; 11-18-2021 at 05:01 AM.
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11-18-2021, 01:00 PM
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#12
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: illinois
Posts: 1,597
Real Name: Ron
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: illinois
Posts: 1,597
Real Name: Ron
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"Binding " caused by OEM bushings I think is the key here and also in the front.
Replace your UCA/LCA and rear upper/lower arms with good aftermarket bushings like Super Pro and I think you will notice a real difference in "feel".
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