Is it just me or do Limiteds (and Nightshades) have some sort of stigma about them? - Page 7 - Toyota 4Runner Forum

I4CUTigers · 05-21-2022, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiles_s

Forgive me for nerding out on this a little bit. But, especially when I was a kid, I have obsessed over suspension.

Fairly sure that. for the TRD ORP, the difference when you add KDSS is the "big, detachable swaybar". Shocks are the same, suspension geometry is the same. In normal driving the swaybar is locked and therefore it's going to reduce side to side sway. Think of it mechanically linking the height of the left and right sides of a given axle and making it harder for the left/right sides to be at different heights. So, front-to-rear as well as ride isn't effected with one exception: it will be harsher when you hit a bump with a single wheel on an axle (with a bigger swaybar). Now at lower speeds the swaybar "softens", lessening its effect.

I do not know if the SR5 has different shocks than the TRD ORP. I believe they are the same. That would have a bit of an effect on dive as you can "damp" some of it away.

X-REAS rigs have swaybars (smaller than KDSS and IIRC the same as the non-KDSS?) and also a horizontal hydraulic link which works to keep diagonal wheels "at the same height" similar to how a swaybar works (left to right) but done hydraulically and "on the diagonal". What this does is reduce lean and dive pretty darn effectively.

FWIW Audi was an early pioneer and user of this technique under the DRC moniker. Does a great job at its intended purpose. In Audi's case it was used to mask some of the challenges of having a super nose-heavy powertrain. Unfortunately like in Toyota the Audi system is notorious for failure and expensive replacement.

But. Back on topic. #limitedsareforsoccermoms

The reason it helps with nose dive is because the KDSS fixed link on the passenger side and the locked piston on drivers side connect to the frame of the vehicle at the top (just like a normal swaybar) and the LCA’s on the bottom. The larger bar, the more resistance to compression it going to have assuming similar bar material, regardless of whether it’s side to side or front to back. Is it as effective as stiffer springs? No, but it’s physics.

stiles_s · 05-21-2022, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I4CUTigers

The reason it helps with nose dive is because the KDSS fixed link on the passenger side and the locked piston on drivers side connect to the frame of the vehicle at the top (just like a normal swaybar) and the LCA’s on the bottom. The larger bar, the more resistance to compression it going to have assuming similar bar material, regardless of whether it’s side to side or front to back. Is it as effective as stiffer springs? No, but it’s physics.

The locked piston is effectively just a "solid bar" with the swaybar bushing on the end. Mechanically, just like the other side w/the solid bar. So, in this mode it is operating as a "thicker swaybar than without KDSS". When the piston unlocks (progressively?) it basically weakens the swaybar.

In all cases, it's applying forces just like a swaybar. Swaybars are designed to enable the suspension to travel freely in compression/rebound without any added friction or force as long as they are "travelling together". The bar "gets involved" when there is a difference in force between the left and right sides of an axle.

I4CUTigers · 05-21-2022, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiles_s

The locked piston is effectively just a "solid bar" with the swaybar bushing on the end. Mechanically, just like the other side w/the solid bar. So, in this mode it is operating as a "thicker swaybar than without KDSS". When the piston unlocks (progressively?) it basically weakens the swaybar.

In all cases, it's applying forces just like a swaybar. Swaybars are designed to enable the suspension to travel freely in compression/rebound without any added friction or force as long as they are "travelling together". The bar "gets involved" when there is a difference in force between the left and right sides of an axle.

Let me clarify, a sway bar is designed to rotate under braking forcing, however, the size (more thickness, which increase rotational resistance under the same amount of torque), shape, how they attach, attachment angle, material comp, effect this rotation, adding compression resistance to your suspension, even traveling together. If you look at the KDSS sway bar, it looks more like a bow, than the normal 4runner sway bar which has more of a 90 degree approach into the wheel assembly. The stiffer bar, combined with a more rigid attachment design, makes for more added rotational and compression resistance in this case. I believe this design is different because the engineers knew the KDSS would unlock at low speeds, ensuring the ride wouldn’t be too stiff.

Ignore the yellow arrow, just captured this from google. Swaybar is below the arrow.

Vs

stiles_s · 05-21-2022, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I4CUTigers

Let me clarify, a sway bar is designed to rotate under braking forcing, however, the size (more thickness, which increase rotational resistance under the same amount of torque), shape, how they attach, attachment angle, material comp, effect this rotation, adding compression resistance to your suspension, even traveling together. If you look at the KDSS sway bar, it looks more like a bow, than the normal 4runner sway bar which has more of a 90 degree approach into the wheel assembly. The stiffer bar, combined with a more rigid attachment design, makes for more added rotational and compression resistance in this case. I believe this design is different because the engineers knew the KDSS would unlock at low speeds, ensuring the ride wouldn’t be too stiff.

Ignore the yellow arrow, just captured this from google. Swaybar is below the arrow.

Yep. I got you and I'm genuinely curious about this. If anyone has any data on the KDSS front bar setup actually increasing the effective spring rate, I'm all ears.

What you are describing would actually add resistance to wheel travel in compression AND rebound which I highly doubt toyota did. Yes, the attachment point is different at the outer end "the end of the lever arm if you will". I'm guessing that's partly due to the standard swaybar linkage not being able to handle the forces involved in teh KDSS bar.

Under the bellows, you see that rubber bushing. That allows the swaybar to rotate freely without friction. IMO it'd be a huge mistake for toyota to actually try to keep that swaybar "rigid" rather than moving freely with the front suspension (again, as long as the two front wheels are moving at the same rate). The "job" it does is to keep the two front wheels "mechanically linked" and at roughly the same "height" left to right, but to allow free vertical movement of the front "axle".

Oh, and #limitedsareforsoccermoms

Steve40th396 · 05-21-2022, 05:34 PM

Limited people are the 1%ers. They live rough lives, sitting in Starbucks drive throughs with AC or Heaters full blast in the harshest environments.
They have their groceries brought to their cars and get Lexus Rx for a loaner when they get cabin filter and oil changes.
Their dogs are with them, poodles, no claws.
They are living life of luxury with heated/vented seats and Nav GPS. Rockstars.
Total oposite of everyone else that doesnt have a Limited. You know, SERFS.

stiles_s · 05-21-2022, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve40th396

Limited people are the 1%ers. They live rough lives, sitting in Starbucks drive throughs with AC or Heaters full blast in the harshest environments.
They have their groceries brought to their cars and get Lexus Rx for a loaner when they get cabin filter and oil changes.
Their dogs are with them, poodles, no claws.
They are living life of luxury with heated/vented seats and Nav GPS. Rockstars.
Total oposite of everyone else that doesnt have a Limited. You know, SERFS.

LOL. Well done, sir.

aggrobot · 05-22-2022, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve40th396

They are living life of luxury with heated/vented seats and Nav GPS. Rockstars.
Total oposite of everyone else that doesnt have a Limited. You know, SERFS.

Thankfully, being the highfalutin limited owner that i am means im not out of my bathrobe long enough figure out how to dump another 4-6K into my ride. Basically what amounts to about a thousand dollars for every camping trip on which it’ll actually go.

But long after the KOA’s lonely call no longer reaches your deaf plebeian ears, the thrill of 13 MPG will tickle your wallet, teasing a fleeting hope on your drive to the pawn shop, where you will sell the guitar you never played to make your next payment.

Bas_G · 05-25-2022, 08:56 PM

Living in place that sees snow 5 months out of the year, the limited is -by far- the best option due to the driveline. And it shows in the sales numbers. The vast majority of runners I see in my area are limiteds. The added creature comforts are nice to have, but not super critical. I can live without the front bumper.
Reality is that a large portion of us swap out the wheels anyway. I sold mine to a Tacoma owner within a week.

With a lot of car models, the upper tier actually offers some value, but with the 4Runner... meh. We could argue about the crawl control that nobody uses, but a TRD pro is pretty much a couple of cosmetic tidbits and some basic upgrades in the suspension. You can get better lockers and lift in the after market and build a better car for less money than the TRD pro premium. And ideally you'd start with a limited

The nightshade though. A lip spoiler? Really? Lowering a high clearance car is a little ... weird.

Humble Leader · 05-26-2022, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bas_G

Living in place that sees snow 5 months out of the year, the limited is -by far- the best option due to the driveline. And it shows in the sales numbers. The vast majority of runners I see in my area are limiteds. The added creature comforts are nice to have, but not super critical. I can live without the front bumper.
Reality is that a large portion of us swap out the wheels anyway. I sold mine to a Tacoma owner within a week.

With a lot of car models, the upper tier actually offers some value, but with the 4Runner... meh. We could argue about the crawl control that nobody uses, but a TRD pro is pretty much a couple of cosmetic tidbits and some basic upgrades in the suspension. You can get better lockers and lift in the after market and build a better car for less money than the TRD pro premium. And ideally you'd start with a limited

The nightshade though. A lip spoiler? Really? Lowering a high clearance car is a little ... weird.

I wish all trims came with a rear locker. crawl control and MTS I can live without. the AWD of the limited with the ability to lock centre and rear differential would be nice

lewdog998 · 05-26-2022, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humble Leader

I wish all trims came with a rear locker. crawl control and MTS I can live without. the AWD of the limited with the ability to lock centre and rear differential would be nice

two things....
1. This weekend I witnessed first hand the magic of crawl control. I was guiding an inexperienced Taco trd off road (stock with BFG ko2) uphill an off camber bouldered shelf road (with about a foot to spare on the ledge side. It was definitely tricky. Anyways they got caught on the last boulder, driver side in the air, rears locked and loosing traction and only the front passenger unable to make it half way up the boulder. We engaged crawl and he let off brake, magically it made it up with no issues. It definitely works in sticky situations.

2. my girlfriends brother has a very nice limited....he said he wished he had gotten a TRD as the limited is too much of a a soccer mom car. I told him I though that it was his wifes car anyways lol.

Humble Leader · 05-26-2022, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lewdog998

two things....
1. This weekend I witnessed first hand the magic of crawl control. I was guiding an inexperienced Taco trd off road (stock with BFG ko2) uphill an off camber bouldered shelf road (with about a foot to spare on the ledge side. It was definitely tricky. Anyways they got caught on the last boulder, driver side in the air, rears locked and loosing traction and only the front passenger unable to make it half way up the boulder. We engaged crawl and he let off brake, magically it made it up with no issues. It definitely works in sticky situations.

2. my girlfriends brother has a very nice limited....he said he wished he had gotten a TRD as the limited is too much of a a soccer mom car. I told him I though that it was his wifes car anyways lol.

of course MTS and crawl control are good - but if I had to choose rear locker or those, I'd choose rear locker.

soccer mom car? I'm not familiar with that term I had to google it. I'm still confused. how does one characterize someone by the type of vehicle they drive. If someone is gonna drop $40K+ on a truck I'd hope they have more self esteem than to be bothered by a nonsensical stereotype. or I'm just not understanding

lewdog998 · 05-26-2022, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humble Leader

of course MTS and crawl control are good - but if I had to choose rear locker or those, I'd choose rear locker.

soccer mom car? I'm not familiar with that term I had to google it. I'm still confused. how does one characterize someone by the type of vehicle they drive. If someone is gonna drop $40K+ on a truck I'd hope they have more self esteem than to be bothered by a nonsensical stereotype. or I'm just not understanding

They had a rear locker that was engaged as well.

regarding the soccer mom comment...yes it is a nonsensical stereotype..but just poking fun. The limited is certainly very practical do anything vehicle.

But I can also say that it is very normal to characterize someone by the vehicle they drive and there is nothing wrong with that. Cars (at least in the US) are very personal items to a person. This site is evidence to that. People love their cars/trucks. Being a lifelong motorcycle rider I pay very close attention to cars, and yes you can make judgements about the car type and condition. As an example, If I see a busted up hoopty wanting to take a left in my path, I cover my brakes. I can tell you that most corvette drivers are likely older and less ticket prone than the WRX driver.

Humble Leader · 05-26-2022, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lewdog998

Cars (at least in the US) are very personal items to a person.

oh it's like that in canada too. maybe too in some other parts of the world, but really is a first world kinda thing lol

Bas_G · 05-26-2022, 05:42 PM

There is not enough of a distinction between a Limited or any other model of Runner to stamp it a mom van. It's only the people that are shopping for one that can really tell the difference besides "oh It has a couple of chrome bits".

And slapping a couple of stickers and a cheap fox kit on a truck doesn't suddenly make a TRD the god of the trails lol

matoolie · 05-26-2022, 09:02 PM

I own both a ‘14 Limited and a ‘21 Pro. Back in ‘14, the first year of facelift across all models, the Limited had some features other trims didn’t have. Push button start, auto climate, heated/ventilated seats, memory seats, leather, JBL with nav, AWD, and others I’m sure I’m forgetting. The AWD is nice in heavy wet weather or light snow. When the XREAS goes out, you can install a lift kit along with 17” wheels and tires and just as off-road capable as other trim levels, minus locker. And want better approach angle, swap bumper cover. And you still have unique features of Limited.

Over the years, the unique features of the Limited, probably the most popular ones, have made it over to other models and the differentiation is not as much as it used to be in my opinion. I think the AWD is still a big differentiator but nice having a shift lever even though never had a problem with electronic control on Limited.

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