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Old 04-12-2022, 08:12 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Bronson View Post
Yes, we totally regret having them do the work. The module wasn't the problem but the tech thought it was so he ordered the part. The service advisor said they don't get paid unless they install the part so out of the goodness of our heart, we let them do it and here we are.

Thank you everyone for posting the tech specs of the braking system.

I went out and retested the truck a few minutes ago and it still has the same issue. The truck goes in tomorrow and I highly doubt we'll get it back the same day. I'm guessing 2 to 40 days depending on what it needs.

I'll keep the group posted.
I had a 17 TRD Pro and had a total brake system failure. Details buried somewhere on the forum. Took over 30 days for Toyota to diagnose and fix. At first, they wanted me to come take the truck as they could not find the issue. Long story short, they sent a senior tech in and hooked the truck up to a computer and we drove it for about 50 miles. They then ask me approximate Date/Time of the failure. From here, they pulled codes that showed the failure of the system. They authorized and completed a full system replacement. No other issues with the T4R
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Old 04-12-2022, 09:18 PM #17
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Originally Posted by DougR View Post
So, the tech thinks you need a module and the service advisor doesn't get a commission unless a part is installed.

At this point, it's OK to say to the advisor "It appears your offer to repair is a guess." Then ask who's money are they guessing with, yours or theirs? Ask them to give you your old part in case their guess doesn't fix your symptom. Ask if their guess doesn't work, who pays the diagnostic fee, labor to install a new part, and labor to reinstall the old part?

When the symptom is not resolved with a new part, the shop and the customer may share some risk when the offer to repair is a guess. It is reasonable for the shop to reinstall your old part, while you receive a refund on the cost of a new part. You agree to pay labor to have your old part reinstalled and the shop agrees to pay the diagnostic fee and labor they charged to install a new part.
This is all under warranty as far as I can tell from the OP's posts (correct me if I'm wrong), the part will likely be tagged and returned to Toyota due to the situation and cost of the repair. As for them "getting paid," that's a more complicated answer that has to do with the bureaucracy and bullshit in dealing with warranty work; but the long and short of it is warranty doesn't pay diagnosis time, only repair time (and most warranty labor is already barely break even if you're lucky.) So any time you spent diagnosing the vehicle, having to call TAS or your FTS, doing lots of tests or pedantic testing because the above needs it for the case file, etc
... the technician and the dealership is not getting reimbursed for until something is replaced (maybe if you're lucky you can attach some Z-Time to the op code, but usually they balk at that.).
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Old 04-13-2022, 12:51 PM #18
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April 13, 2022 Update

The braking issue is fixed and the truck returned to us last night. I've tested the truck numerous times and everything works fine. The work was done under warranty.

The issue was related to a programming/coding glitch with the newly installed electronic brake booster module. When this module is installed, the tech is to perform a "zero point calibration" of the ABS unit, steering angle sensor, yaw rate sensor, and accelerator sensor. Apparently this is a rare thing to do with later model 4Runners as they aren't often in for repairs.

When the module was installed, the tech performed the calibration which takes a while. The calibration shut-off thus the tech assumed the calibration took and the truck was returned to us. It turns out that the calibration did not take and simply timed out thus is the reason why the truck behaved so wonky under hard braking. It makes total sense as to why the brakes seemed to be working independently against each other and the truck rotating on its axis all the while the steering wheel straight.

According to the service advisor, when the tech test drove our truck, he nearly lost control during heavy braking. The service advisor even put in an email to me that the tech drove the truck and the braking is "NOT" right at all. I'm glad I wrote a letter to the tech describing the issue in detail and to make sure that the tech understood to have adequate space to the right as that's where the truck will go quite violently if you're really hard on the brakes.

Once back in the shop, the tech ran a bunch of tests and he kept coming back to the zero point calibration. He tried the calibration multiple times and it would never indicate to him that it was done. It just timed out. To make sure this was correct, he called TAS and had an engineer walk him through the process. Turns out the current written procedure is missing a crucial step thus wasn't allowing the calibration to take. Once they figured it out, the calibration took. The procedure has been updated because of this.

It's rather scary how technology can work against you and what is designed to save lives could actually take them away if it's not timed correctly

Last edited by Charles Bronson; 04-13-2022 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 04-13-2022, 03:56 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Bronson View Post
April 13, 2022 Update

The braking issue is fixed and the truck returned to us last night. I've tested the truck numerous times and everything works fine. The work was done under warranty.

The issue was related to a programming/coding glitch with the newly installed electronic brake booster module. When this module is installed, the tech is to perform a "zero point calibration" of the ABS unit, steering angle sensor, yaw rate sensor, and accelerator sensor. Apparently this is a rare thing to do with later model 4Runners as they aren't often in for repairs.

When the module was installed, the tech performed the calibration which takes a while. The calibration shut-off thus the tech assumed the calibration took and the truck was returned to us. It turns out that the calibration did not take and simply timed out thus is the reason why the truck behaved so wonky under hard braking. It makes total sense as to why the brakes seemed to be working independently against each other and the truck rotating on its axis all the while the steering wheel straight.

According to the service advisor, when the tech test drove our truck, he nearly lost control during heavy braking. The service advisor even put in an email to me that the tech drove the truck and the braking is "NOT" right at all. I'm glad I wrote a letter to the tech describing the issue in detail and to make sure that the tech understood to have adequate space to the right as that's where the truck will go quite violently if you're really hard on the brakes.

Once back in the shop, the tech ran a bunch of tests and he kept coming back to the zero point calibration. He tried the calibration multiple times and it would never indicate to him that it was done. It just timed out. To make sure this was correct, he called TAS and had an engineer walk him through the process. Turns out the current written procedure is missing a crucial step thus wasn't allowing the calibration to take. Once they figured it out, the calibration took. The procedure has been updated because of this.

It's rather scary how technology can work against you and what is designed to save lives could actually take them away if it's not timed correctly
My guess is that he got tripped up by the parking brake step, I had a similar fiasco on an older Camry Hybrid that I did a unit on. Would not calibrate the ZPC and Linear Solenoid Valve despite doing everything the book required for replacement. Eventually figured out that you needed to disengage the parking brake after a specified part of the scan tool n process (was a guess based on context of the steps after that point, the FSM or scan tool prompts never mentioned to actually disengage the parking brake at that step).

There are multiple options with the scan tool when replacing components like the ABS Unit. Most of them are fairly clear in what you need to do step by step with on screen prompts (the full process basically bleeds the unit, pressurizes it, and depressurizes, repeating these steps a few times, then it will play with its solenoids and sensors a bit, pressurize itself, and then depressurize itself a few more times, followed by a self calibration of some final sensors; then after all that the technician goes and does the ZPC relearn for Taw arate and such), but sometimes they aren't clear when a calibration doesn't take or *why* it doesn't take. I'm a bit surprised that it didn't immediately set a ZPC error that he couldn't clear before test driving the vehicle. Usually that's a sign that something didn't take correctly as the Zero Point Calibration of the Yaw Rate and Acceleration sensor is one of the last commanded calibrations on most Toyota/Lexus ABS systems (steering angle ZPC is usually handled automatically by driving in a straight line above 20mph for a short while).

It's possibly that technician hasn't done a whole lot of ABS Unit replacements and must have missed the RAV4 and Prius recalls years ago. That being said, it does sound like a weird glitch; like I said, usually if the new unit calibration process fails/acts up it sets at least one or two DTCs that you can't clear or calibrate away until you start the whole process from scratch. So that certainly sounds like a weird anomaly based on my experience.

In any case I'm glad everything was fixed and no one was hurt in the process!
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Old 04-13-2022, 04:17 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackWorksInc View Post
My guess is that he got tripped up by the parking brake step, I had a similar fiasco on an older Camry Hybrid that I did a unit on. Would not calibrate the ZPC and Linear Solenoid Valve despite doing everything the book required for replacement. Eventually figured out that you needed to disengage the parking brake after a specified part of the scan tool n process (was a guess based on context of the steps after that point, the FSM or scan tool prompts never mentioned to actually disengage the parking brake at that step).

There are multiple options with the scan tool when replacing components like the ABS Unit. Most of them are fairly clear in what you need to do step by step with on screen prompts (the full process basically bleeds the unit, pressurizes it, and depressurizes, repeating these steps a few times, then it will play with its solenoids and sensors a bit, pressurize itself, and then depressurize itself a few more times, followed by a self calibration of some final sensors; then after all that the technician goes and does the ZPC relearn for Taw arate and such), but sometimes they aren't clear when a calibration doesn't take or *why* it doesn't take. I'm a bit surprised that it didn't immediately set a ZPC error that he couldn't clear before test driving the vehicle. Usually that's a sign that something didn't take correctly as the Zero Point Calibration of the Yaw Rate and Acceleration sensor is one of the last commanded calibrations on most Toyota/Lexus ABS systems (steering angle ZPC is usually handled automatically by driving in a straight line above 20mph for a short while).

It's possibly that technician hasn't done a whole lot of ABS Unit replacements and must have missed the RAV4 and Prius recalls years ago. That being said, it does sound like a weird glitch; like I said, usually if the new unit calibration process fails/acts up it sets at least one or two DTCs that you can't clear or calibrate away until you start the whole process from scratch. So that certainly sounds like a weird anomaly based on my experience.

In any case I'm glad everything was fixed and no one was hurt in the process!
Thank you for all the information. I wish you were in Kansas City!
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